Maggie Thatcher Passes Away.

[Gairdner]

We have the mining background in common then, Jamie. My father learnt his trade down the pit, it killed my Grandad Fraser (dust) when my Dad was just 21 and long before I had a chance to know him, my Granny Fraser was head of the pit canteen for many years, my Dad's big sister worked in the offices and even my mother worked for the coal board doing the wages. In fact, I think I was the first one not to have a pit-related job at some point. Faither was born in his house, a traditional brick miners row in Newtongrange, a short walk from Lady Victoria Colliery which is now the National Mining Museum of Scotland. It still seems so ironic that all those members of my family worked there going back generations yet the first time I set foot in the place, it was for a breakfast business meeting with the Bank!

Although the pit has long been closed and many people displaced, I wonder at the response you'd get if you walked up the 'streets' (there were ten numbered, my Dad lived in Seventh Street, the first 'e' being most commonly pronounced 'ee'), knocked on doors and asked for opinions on Thatcher? Best of luck with that.....

 

[shavecraft]

Am I the only one who thinks that it is massively disrespectful to celebrate anyone's death? If it were someone's family member, you wouldn't drag up things which happened years ago.. That he's death has not stopped anything else from occurring compared to her leaving politics years ago. I appreciate that I didn't live through her regime, and I don't yet take party sides as parties change their policies so much these days... But to be fair celebrating anyone's death is quite a nasty thing to do.
Disagree with anyone you like for good reason and voice said opinions if you see fit, but say that the world is a better place without their influence rather than without their life.
Regards
Rodders

I have to agree. While I am too young to remember alot of what went on and the fact I don't agree with most of her policy's I think it is horrific that people have been partying because of her death. She was a wife and mother and at the end of the day they have lost someone. How would people feel if all the negative things were brought up if it was your loved one. Just shows how crazy things have gotten in my view....

Whilst I don't personally feel any need to celebrate her passing I have no criticism whatsoever of those who feel the need. Perhaps you had to be around at the time or closely connected to those who suffered to understand this. As for negative things being brought up...well I , and I'm sure many others, have felt compelled to offer a critique of what she did. This is entirely justified. If nothing else than to counter the entirely predictable, but nonetheless sycophantic and highly partisan outpourings from Cameron et al. A thread like this invites just such a debate after all. If you care about the future of your family, community, country, the planet you live on then getting passionate about it is nothing to shy away from, on whatever side of the political fence you stand.

 

[Tall_Paul]

Whilst I don't personally feel any need to celebrate her passing I have no criticism whatsoever of those who feel the need. Perhaps you had to be around at the time or closely connected to those who suffered to understand this. As for negative things being brought up...well I , and I'm sure many others, have felt compelled to offer a critique of what she did. This is entirely justified. If nothing else than to counter the entirely predictable, but nonetheless sycophantic and highly partisan outpourings from Cameron et al. A thread like this invites just such a debate after all. If you care about the future of your family, community, country, the planet you live on then getting passionate about it is nothing to shy away from, on whatever side of the political fence you sit.

Very well worded. I think you've summed it up nicely.

 

[Gairdner]

Whilst I don't personally feel any need to celebrate her passing I have no criticism whatsoever of those who feel the need. Perhaps you had to be around at the time or closely connected to those who suffered to understand this. As for negative things being brought up...well I , and I'm sure many others, have felt compelled to offer a critique of what she did. This is entirely justified. If nothing else than to counter the entirely predictable, but nonetheless sycophantic and highly partisan outpourings from Cameron et al. A thread like this invites just such a debate after all. If you care about the future of your family, community, country, the planet you live on then getting passionate about it is nothing to shy away from, on whatever side of the political fence you sit.

Very well worded. I think you've summed it up nicely.

Aye.

 

[Al H]

Labour closed more mines than thatcher, why do we never hear the moans from those miners, instead of pouring all their venom on thatcher

Seems hypocritical to me

 

[The Mackem Shaver]

Labour closed more mines than thatcher, why do we never hear the moans from those miners, instead of pouring all their venom on thatcher

Seems hypocritical to me

Maybe the miners realised pits did have to close but thought Thatcher had a political agenda to prove a point against their union and not intend to manage the decline of the industry in good faith. Or alternatively if Labour could close more mines than Thatcher maybe her slash and burn policy wasn't needed to save the country from the unions.

 

[Al H]

Labour closed more mines than thatcher, why do we never hear the moans from those miners, instead of pouring all their venom on thatcher

Seems hypocritical to me

Maybe the miners realised pits did have to close but thought Thatcher had a political agenda to prove a point against their union and not intend to manage the decline of the industry in good faith. Or alternatively if Labour could close more mines than Thatcher maybe her slash and burn policy wasn't needed to save the country from the unions.

It was never ideological to close 100+ mines and put people on dole

Commie scargill was determined to bring down the Tory government and decided to strike with out a mandate, he took on thatcher and lost but is living nicely as NUM life president and the trappings that go with it.

The miners duped

 

[shavecraft]

Labour closed more mines than thatcher, why do we never hear the moans from those miners, instead of pouring all their venom on thatcher

Seems hypocritical to me

Maybe the miners realised pits did have to close but thought Thatcher had a political agenda to prove a point against their union and not intend to manage the decline of the industry in good faith. Or alternatively if Labour could close more mines than Thatcher maybe her slash and burn policy wasn't needed to save the country from the unions.

It was never ideological to close 100+ mines and put people on dole

Commie scargill was determined to bring down the Tory government and decided to strike with out a mandate, he took on thatcher and lost but is living nicely as NUM life president and the trappings that go with it.

The miners duped

Agree with you that Scargill let the NUM membership down badly. Many would. Some of those mines would have been justifiably shut, others not so. I'd imagine some of those with close mining links could comment far more knowledgeably than me on that, some already have. If you think it stacks up to suggest Thatcher's agenda wasn't ideological then that's an, let's just call it, interesting theory. Most would disagree, including some of her close colleagues of the time.

 

[The Mackem Shaver]

Labour closed more mines than thatcher, why do we never hear the moans from those miners, instead of pouring all their venom on thatcher

Seems hypocritical to me

Maybe the miners realised pits did have to close but thought Thatcher had a political agenda to prove a point against their union and not intend to manage the decline of the industry in good faith. Or alternatively if Labour could close more mines than Thatcher maybe her slash and burn policy wasn't needed to save the country from the unions.

It was never ideological to close 100+ mines and put people on dole

Commie scargill was determined to bring down the Tory government and decided to strike with out a mandate, he took on thatcher and lost but is living nicely as NUM life president and the trappings that go with it.

The miners duped

I never said it was but she did want to break the NUM and wasn't bothered by the cost. That it was a political fight between the left and right and the miners got screwed is a view I have sympathy with.

 

[Al H]

To be fair to maggie the num started on her first. The union not the miners. As discussed earlier the unions had too much power to the detriment of their members, closed shop etc

Now you have the underground drivers on 30k+ trying to hold us to ransom, they would soon moan if we got driverless tubes

 

[smegal]

Scargill did more damage to mining communities than Thatcher ever did!

 

[The Mackem Shaver]

To be fair to maggie the num started on her first. The union not the miners. As discussed earlier the unions had too much power to the detriment of their members, closed shop etc

Now you have the underground drivers on 30k+ trying to hold us to ransom, they would soon moan if we got driverless tubes

But as you said Labour closed more mines than Thatcher (and so the argument goes around in a circle) so the decision to break the union was a political one and not in the interest of the industry. It is possible to criticise Thatcher and recognise the problems within unions.

 

[Al H]

To be fair to maggie the num started on her first. The union not the miners. As discussed earlier the unions had too much power to the detriment of their members, closed shop etc

Now you have the underground drivers on 30k+ trying to hold us to ransom, they would soon moan if we got driverless tubes

But as you said Labour closed more mines than Thatcher (and so the argument goes around in a circle) so the decision to break the union was a political one and not in the interest of the industry. It is possible to criticise Thatcher and recognise the problems within unions.

I agree on your last point, but if the unions had payed ball instead of holding us to ransom they wouldn't need breaking.

I'm all for unions they serve a good purpose, however the leadership often get political ambitions above their station in life and often to the detriment of their members, as was certainly the case with the NUM and scargill.

 

[Denzle]

To be fair to maggie the num started on her first. The union not the miners. As discussed earlier the unions had too much power to the detriment of their members, closed shop etc

Now you have the underground drivers on 30k+ trying to hold us to ransom, they would soon moan if we got driverless tubes

Who are "those miners" who moaned? Ever work underground as a miner Mate? We just fought to save our jobs.

 

[RB73]

To be fair to maggie the num started on her first. The union not the miners. As discussed earlier the unions had too much power to the detriment of their members, closed shop etc

Now you have the underground drivers on 30k+ trying to hold us to ransom, they would soon moan if we got driverless tubes

But as you said Labour closed more mines than Thatcher (and so the argument goes around in a circle) so the decision to break the union was a political one and not in the interest of the industry. It is possible to criticise Thatcher and recognise the problems within unions.

But do you not think it is slightly lopsided with regards to this matter ? Many people acknowledge a lot of industries were destroyed by her, and what's more, ...destroyed with the MANDATE OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE.

The seventies were blighted by the trade unions waiting for winter and then coming out on strike at it's heart. Holding the country to ransom for ANNUAL pay rises of up to 36% ABOVE inflation. This was the likes of Scargill and co, and they bled us dry. We were bankrupted by them. And then the Winter of Discontent happened. And they ALL came out. Miners, power workers, transport workers; even funeral directors, everything tied into the TGWU came out.

The entire country was a ruin, rubbish not collected for months, rats everywhere and the unions laughed and brought down Callaghan's Labour Government. So Thatcher stood up at the General Election and made ONE SIMPLE PROMISE. Elect me and THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. ELECT ME AND I WILL DESTROY THEM. She won a landslid on that promise.And she became the last elected Prime Minister to actually hold true to her election promise.

So the unions were actually more that a little bit of a problem if their legacy kept the person that broke them in office for so long. But there seems to be a disquieting silence bar a couple of posters with regards to this, and as we today can see the knock on affects of any such action when the tubes or buses are on strike for a couple of days, i can only imagine how bad it was back then, the actions of a few, fucking the county off enough to allow the above to happen.

 

[Al H]

To be fair to maggie the num started on her first. The union not the miners. As discussed earlier the unions had too much power to the detriment of their members, closed shop etc

Now you have the underground drivers on 30k+ trying to hold us to ransom, they would soon moan if we got driverless tubes

Who are "those miners" who moaned? Ever work underground as a miner Mate? We just fought to save our jobs.

Mining was declining industry, it's a separate argument and a correct one that alternative employment should have been put in place but I digress.

There is so much prejudice against thatcher closing mines but where was the year long strike when Callaghan and Wilson closed over 300 mines. To use your words where the miners fighting to Dave jobs.

When Harold Wilson died a few years back where were the ex miners wishing to dance on his grave.

It's all a bit hypocritical to me, I won't praise everything thatcher did but its not fair she takes all the brunt of the miners venom when labour did worse by the miners.

Because of scargills bloody mindedness to bring down a government it turned into the NUM v maggie and the miners were used as pawns and there was only going to be one winner.

How many miners voted to go on strike.

I wasn't a miner but I'm a south walian who has had family who were so I do know a bit.

The left are rewriting history to show maggie as the bitch but the reality is it was the left who started to close the pits because it was an uneconomical declining industry.