Maggie Thatcher Passes Away.

[shavecraft]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I'm a little puzzled, whilst I wasn't of age to vote through the late seventies to early nineties, how did this woman stay in office for three terms, two by fairly bloody huge margins and up until she was kyboshed by members of her own party, mainly that low down Europro traitor ponce Heseltine, she probably would have seen a fourth term.

Just asking like.

Not being an apologist for any politician and having no political alliances I can't offer any great insight into the success of either Thatcher or Blair RB. However I'd guess as one who was struggling to buy our three room terraced house in the seventies and lived through the shortened working week of Heath's government, the 27% inflation rate, the petrol shortages & a mortgage which was running in the region of 15% interest many of us ordinary working peeps were as sick of and alienated from what the politicians of the day were offering as, well, many of us are now. Did I mention the rat infested uncollected rubbish in the streets ?
Since, as far as I recall, we were in any event in thrall to being bailed out by the IMF whoever came in to power was always going to have to implement the type of stringent policies we now can witness in Greece & Cyprus. With the same type of economic pain. Add to this the (in my view) fairly extreme monetary policies of people such as Thatcher, Tebbit & Joseph and hard times were always in view. That the conservative government kept getting elected suggests, to me, that many voters felt "something had to be done" to balance the books. As far as the % of total votes alloted to one party or another, well, that's the system we have. In the recent referendum the opportunity to move to a system of proportional representation was decisively rejected by those who voted. So, first past the post it remains. And, as far as I read, in England it takes more voters in a constituency to elect a conservative MP than a labour one. An inequality (if true) which lost its opportunity to be rectified when the libs chose not to support the recommendations of the boundary commision.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:

Just got to say Johnny PR wasn't rejected. The Alternative Vote was. If anything it can throw up even less proportional results. No improvement on the present system so hardly a surprise it was rejected. I'm a believer in PR, but I didn't turn out to vote in that referendum because the alternative being offered was bollocks. Clegg fell for Cameron's bait hook, line and sinker in return for a sniff of power. He sold a raison d'être of his party down the river in doing so.

 

[Tall_Paul]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I think one of the issues is those who did well under a Thatcher government did very well, and those who suffered really suffered.

I also think that if you didn't live in one of the areas that really suffered under Maggie's reign in the seventies and eighties (like South Yorkshire) then you will never understand why she polarises opinion so much.

 

[shavecraft]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Right to buy bought a whole bunch of votes from what was largely hitherto a natural Labour constituency.


Regarding industrial reform under Thatcher Jeltz, the baby was thrown out with the bath water. Her reforms, much of which I would personally describe as vandalism of a treasonous magnitude, were as politically motivated as they were economic.

I've just got to respond to this Shavecraft. Are you seriously suggesting that the labour strongholds were so grateful to Maggie for allowing them to buy their own house that they pledged to support her for the next 10 years?

And as for the baby being thrown out with the bathwater - what baby? If you think it wrong that someone should have a choice whether to join a union as opposed to be foreced to via a closed shop; if you think it right that someone should be able to tell you that you must stop work without asking your opinion; if you think it right that left wing agitators should have carte blanche to bully, harrass, threaten and beat you up because you decide to make your own mind up on an issue - then I suggest that your opinion is at odds with the majority of decent people who wanted a strike and strife free country.

Take a look at the numbers of union members pre and post the legislation - less than half. Does that tell you anything about choice.

Quick reply Rob. Yes I'm suggesting a lot of former Labour voters who took advantage of the Right to Buy became Tory voters. If that hadn't been a result the policy would have been a political failure, which I've never heard anyone suggesting it was. If I could be bothered I'm sure this could be referenced in the historical and political literature. But I've spent more than enough time on this thread already! The economic and social failure of the policy was in failing to use the proceeds to replace with new social housing stock. I already mentioned that the policy of failing to replace was largely politically motivated as well.

On the baby with the bath water comment. I already covered my view of this in earlier posts. Reforms were needed (including in union practices, failing management, union-management relations), industry needed modernising. Other countries (most notably, and a good comparison, Germany) managed this without destroying their industrial base. Thanks to Thatcher, and I'll acknowledge a failure of leadership in the Labour movement, we didn't. Much to the disadvantage of our economy to this day.

 

[JohnnyO]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Just got to say Johnny PR wasn't rejected. The Alternative Vote was.

Fair and accurate comment Shavecraft. Although I'm not entirely sure (and certainly couldn't prove any any assertion) that everyone who didn't vote or voted against what was on offer did so because of the system on offer. Speaking as one who lives under the iniquitious "List System" we have here in Scotland which allows MSPs such as Ms Sturgeon to lose succesive elections yet still appear in the Scottish Parliament as spokespersons for their party I can't help feeling that the Scottish experiment with a form of proportional representation is enough to arouse scepticism in many voters. (Most certainly in this one at least !).


This whole thread does rather sum up political discussion in general, doesn't it. Nobody's mind is changed, and each side thinks the other immune to facts, logic, and basic human decency.

You're correct yet again Dr.R. And the more passionately we feel the more we rehearse our beliefs and so consolidate them in our own minds.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:

 

[UKRob]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

The Unions had grown very powerful - a reaction to Capitalism seeking better opportunities abroad. I wqs sea-going in those days and saw a British company being allowed to rot and then finding a new shipyard and/or drydock being opened by the same company in Singapore, say.

Chicken or Egg? Another reading of your example might be that the British shipyard was unworkable because of union power.
Industrial stagnation started after WWII. All things conspired to come to a head and Maggie stepped in to destroy. Many things needed to be changed - on both sides of industry - but re-building could have done that. Maggie chose destruction and the reassertion of the Establishment in place of power over the working folk of UK. No wonder Blair came along with his 'Partnership' attitudes!

The union problems came to a head in the 70's when the old guard moderates found they had lost control to a heavily left-wing group. These people would not work with Labour or any other government at the time. I remind you Carl, the nation was on it's knees - Tony Benn seriously wanted to install a siege economy where imports would be banned, but thought that the rest of the world loved us enough that it would gladly let us continue exporting to them. His answer to lame duck industries was to throw public money at 'co-operatives' - yet he refused to give his backing to the cabinet's wishes for labour reforms. Jim Callaghan (and Wilson before him) were totally dependent on union funding and hide-bound as to what they could do in terms of reforms anyway. That's the real background to what happened a decade later.
But we digress, this thread is about Maggie being dead. Hurrah!

I suppose a good question for you, Rob, is why is she so very much hated by so very many people if she was a power for good in UK. Not disliked. Hated!
I don't know the answer to that but part of the reason is that the left wing has never forgotten that she defeated their plans to turns this country into their version of a socialist utopia and has kept up a campaign of demonisation ever since.

 

[Bechet]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Chicken or Egg? Another reading of your example might be that the British shipyard was unworkable because of union power.

That made me chuckle, Rob. I was in Smith's Docks in North Shields for six months as part of my cadetship - 1965, twenty years after WWII ended. They had a steam driven crane that chugged and puffed along the top of the dry-dock wall. It could not reach up and over a lot of ships. Did they buy a new crane big enough to do the job? Not a bit of it! They converted the old - and I mean ancient - crane from coal fired to oil fired and it continued to chug and puff around the yard, too small and not powerful enough to do it's intended job.

Unworkable because of union power? Nah! the crane was too little. Singapore was getting alll mod cons in whacking big drydocks with huge, powerful cranes. British capital chasing cheap labour.

There was a time when, if you wanted a ship, you had to buy a British built ship and if you wanted an engine in that British built ship, you had to install a British engine, designed and built in Britian. It always seemed to me that was a pretty good head start on the Rest of the World. A bit of investment and modernisation was needed - well, a lot to be fair, after decades of neglect. All long since gone, apart from RN work. Maggie nailed the coffin lid down on that one, too.

 

[UKRob]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I don't think you can explain history via personal anecdotes Carl. But I'm glad I cheered you up anyway.

This is positively my last word on this increasingly pointless thread.

 

[Bechet]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I don't think you can explain history via personal anecdotes Carl. But I'm glad I cheered you up anyway.

This is positively my last word on this increasingly pointless thread.

See, Maggie didn't believe that history and countries are made up of personal stories, either.

I'm sad you find the thread to be "increasingly pointless", Rob. I find the passions I felt long ago have been revived and find they are echoed by people much younger than myself - that feels good! I take my renewed anger at Maggie to the gym and enjoy some really 'good' workouts. I enjoy getting more insight into some of our members that I wouldn't othherwise get. But mainly, in the face of squandering £8m of our money on Maggie's ride to Hell, it registers our protest at her politics..

 

[Jute Man]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

The woman had more balls than any male PM that I've ever seen.

She screwed a great many people, but at least she told them first.

Ian

She screwed a whole nation with her guinea-pig trial of the poll tax on the people of Scotland!! That's why, to this day there are more pandas in the country than there are Scottish Tory MPs!

 

[RB73]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Didn't she attend a lot of parties with Jimmy Saville? That's probably worse than Pinochet

Reckon she was aiming for the younger voter

---

Chicken or Egg? Another reading of your example might be that the British shipyard was unworkable because of union power.

That made me chuckle, Rob. I was in Smith's Docks in North Shields for six months as part of my cadetship - 1965, twenty years after WWII ended. They had a steam driven crane that chugged and puffed along the top of the dry-dock wall. It could not reach up and over a lot of ships. Did they buy a new crane big enough to do the job? Not a bit of it! They converted the old - and I mean ancient - crane from coal fired to oil fired and it continued to chug and puff around the yard, too small and not powerful enough to do it's intended job.

Unworkable because of union power? Nah! the crane was too little. Singapore was getting alll mod cons in whacking big drydocks with huge, powerful cranes. British capital chasing cheap labour.

There was a time when, if you wanted a ship, you had to buy a British built ship and if you wanted an engine in that British built ship, you had to install a British engine, designed and built in Britian. It always seemed to me that was a pretty good head start on the Rest of the World. A bit of investment and modernisation was needed - well, a lot to be fair, after decades of neglect. All long since gone, apart from RN work. Maggie nailed the coffin lid down on that one, too.

Took the kids down to Chatham dockyard for the tour Carl, what struck me most was how in a very short period of time our yards went from being at the forefront of this industry to bugger all.

 

[antdad]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I hear "Ding Dong: The Witches Dead" has hit the charts and the beeb are all a quandary; who says young folks don't care anymore, you heard it first hear folks on post 6.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2013/apr/12/ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead

 

[RB73]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I hear "Ding Dong: The Witches Dead" has hit the charts and the beeb are all a quandary; who says young folks don't care anymore, you heard it first hear folks on post 6.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2013/apr/12/ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead

Probably has more to do with the sheep affect

 

[JohnnyO]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

The woman had more balls than any male PM that I've ever seen.

She screwed a great many people, but at least she told them first.

Ian

She screwed a whole nation with her guinea-pig trial of the poll tax on the people of Scotland!! That's why, to this day there are more pandas in the country than there are Scottish Tory MPs!

In fairness to her (not something noticeable thus far ) as one who was affected by the rates revaluation in (I believe) 1985 the community charge or poll tax was introduced early in Scotland against her own views. It was Scots MPs such as (now Sir) M. Forsyth who pushed to bring it in early up here as there was such a wave of disquiet about the truly horrendous valuations for fairly modest homes which that revaluation proposed. Like or dislike that attempted alternative to the rates it was introduced earlier north of the border not to "try out" but because that now endangered species, the Scottish conservatives wanted it.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:

 

[Bechet]

Just because they wanted it does not mean that it wasn't a 'try it on the Scots first' by Westminster. Fewer seats to lose up there, after all.

Thanks for changing the thread title! How about going one further? Maggie Thatcher is dead! Two further? Hurray! Maggie Thatcher is dead!

 

[JohnnyO]

Being honest Bro Brechet, one of the many characteristics I've always appreciated about threads in TSR is the way they can gently meander about and around the original subject. So, although we may have travelled a fair way from my original heading I'd be the last to be overly concerned about it.
Far better a wee shade indiscipline in adhering to the subject than a doctrinaire and rigid approach to our discussions I believe.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:

 

[Francorelli]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

This whole thread does rather sum up political discussion in general, doesn't it. Nobody's mind is changed, and each side thinks the other immune to facts, logic, and basic human decency.

The most accurate and pertinent post on this thread so far.

Looking forward to the next 12 pages boys...