Maggie Thatcher Passes Away.

[Al H]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Still don't think that is a good enough answer to explain away three terms and what was looking more than likely have been be a forth. Does it have to be fifty pecent of the vote when the nearest rival is so far behind?

In 1979 they led Labour by seven percentage points. In every subsequent election they got a lower percentage than in 1979! The Tories were incredibly well served by the divisions of the left.

There was certainly never a time when a clear and marked majority of the populace were not anti-Thatcher.

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As to fascism, let us simply remark that that certainly wasn't the reason that Augusto Pinochet's personal friend and unflappable defender took us to war...

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So having a percentage lead over your rival does actually count as winning.

Would you have allowed the invasion to stand with just a shrug of your shoulders.

Bloody glad i don't vote for either of them.

Scargill's keeping very quite though, wonder why.

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Scargill was a communist, started a strike without the mandate of his members.

Labour closed more pits than the Tories.
Labour not thatcher started the eradication of free milk in schools
Labour introduced university tuition fees

And they still slag off thatcher and the Tories

Thatcher was very respectful when Michael foot died, but the left are not so, enemies in life and enemies in death so it seems

 

[Jeltz]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

The strength of the unions back then is totally alien to us now, I tried to explain the concept of the closed shop to a youngster and their reaction was surely that would have been illegal.

If we are without broadband for more than 10 minutes these days its a calamity, but back then rubbish piled up in the streets, there were power cuts and grave diggers refusing to bury the dead all because the unions had the power to.

It seems to me that the unions had put pay to British industry by the time Thatcher came to power what she did was to cut away the dead wood. The suffering was dreadful as all the pain was experienced at one time, that was because the parts of industry which should have declined naturally over the preceding years had been propped up on demand of the Unions.

 

[shavecraft]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I'm a little puzzled, whilst I wasn't of age to vote through the late seventies to early nineties, how did this woman stay in office for three terms, two by fairly bloody huge margins and up until she was kyboshed by members of her own party, mainly that low down Europro traitor ponce Heseltine, she probably would have seen a fourth term.

Just asking like.

My quick thoughts on that Richard. Our less than fully democratic electoral system (I think I'm right in saying Thatcher never secured as much as 50% of the vote). Labour were in a mess. A (then as now) predominantly right wing media. And, I know this might push a few buttons, but I'll risk it anyway...a lot of folk don't know what side their bread's buttered...any low paid worker, for example, who votes Tory is an eedjit IMO. Awaits brickbats :s

As n when we have to suffer a Tory government I would far rather it was under a one-nation type Tory like Heser than the divisive, vicious, destructiveness of Thatcher.

Still don't think that is a good enough answer to explain away three terms and what was looking more than likely have been be a forth. Does it have to be fifty pecent of the vote when the nearest rival is so far behind?

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You forgot Jingoism.:angel:

Not the very real threat of nuclear war, or the Fascist invasion of the Falklands.

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Well, without intending to be in any way comprehensive, a couple of other reasons. Maggie was, at least until the latter part of her premiership, an astute and ruthless political operator, a class apart from her opposition at the time (both in and outside her party). Right to buy bought a whole bunch of votes from what was largely hitherto a natural Labour constituency. By forbidding councils from reinvesting the proceeds in new social housing stock she made sure that constituency was never rebuilt (at great cost to the country to this day through the housing benefit bill and wider housing crisis). The destruction of so much of our industrial base atomised another bastion of Labour support.

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The strength of the unions back then is totally alien to us now, I tried to explain the concept of the closed shop to a youngster and their reaction was surely that would have been illegal.

If we are without broadband for more than 10 minutes these days its a calamity, but back then rubbish piled up in the streets, there were power cuts and grave diggers refusing to bury the dead all because the unions had the power to.

It seems to me that the unions had put pay to British industry by the time Thatcher came to power what she did was to cut away the dead wood. The suffering was dreadful as all the pain was experienced at one time, that was because the parts of industry which should have declined naturally over the preceding years had been propped up on demand of the Unions.

Regarding industrial reform under Thatcher Jeltz, the baby was thrown out with the bath water. Her reforms, much of which I would personally describe as vandalism of a treasonous magnitude, were as politically motivated as they were economic.

 

[UKRob]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Right to buy bought a whole bunch of votes from what was largely hitherto a natural Labour constituency.


Regarding industrial reform under Thatcher Jeltz, the baby was thrown out with the bath water. Her reforms, much of which I would personally describe as vandalism of a treasonous magnitude, were as politically motivated as they were economic.

I've just got to respond to this Shavecraft. Are you seriously suggesting that the labour strongholds were so grateful to Maggie for allowing them to buy their own house that they pledged to support her for the next 10 years?

And as for the baby being thrown out with the bathwater - what baby? If you think it wrong that someone should have a choice whether to join a union as opposed to be foreced to via a closed shop; if you think it right that someone should be able to tell you that you must stop work without asking your opinion; if you think it right that left wing agitators should have carte blanche to bully, harrass, threaten and beat you up because you decide to make your own mind up on an issue - then I suggest that your opinion is at odds with the majority of decent people who wanted a strike and strife free country.

Take a look at the numbers of union members pre and post the legislation - less than half. Does that tell you anything about choice.

 

[Bechet]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Capital was being sent abroad rather than invested in modernising British industry. I see strong Trades Unions as an inevitable response of workers trying to protect their jobs. Union leader were well aware that industries were being allowed to stagnate and rot in terms of the world market as well as having an opposite agenda to Maggie.

Thatcher used the power of the State to crush the workers of this country rather than build new, attractive industries and jobs.

We hear a lot these days about the first duty of the State being to protect and keep safe the general population. Maggie set about smashing the population into submission. I would happily see her head on a pyke on a Tyne Bridge and her quartered body parts sent to the corners of this land, with extra bits for the north and mining areas.

 

[Boab]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Didn't she attend a lot of parties with Jimmy Saville? That's probably worse than Pinochet

 

[UKRob]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Thatcher used the power of the State to crush the workers of this country rather than build new, attractive industries and jobs.

Then who the fuck kept on voting her into power? Non workers, the idle rich?

Fact is mate, there were more people glad to see the union stranglehold removed than those who preferred it. As for industrial stagnation - that started years before she ever came into a position of influence.

 

[Fido]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I cannot arouse myself to respond sensibly to what I have read here. Just one thought. I wonder what the country would now be like if we had a top rate of tax of 83% and a standard rate of 33%.

 

[Bechet]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Thatcher used the power of the State to crush the workers of this country rather than build new, attractive industries and jobs.

Then who the fuck kept on voting her into power? Non workers, the idle rich?

A minority of the population who had views such as yours and who got past the post first.

Fact is mate, there were more people glad to see the union stranglehold removed than those who preferred it. As for industrial stagnation - that started years before she ever came into a position of influence.

The Unions had grown very powerful - a reaction to Capitalism seeking better opportunities abroad. I wqs sea-going in those days and saw a British company being allowed to rot and then finding a new shipyard and/or drydock being opened by the same company in Singapore, say.

Industrial stagnation started after WWII. All things conspired to come to a head and Maggie stepped in to destroy. Many things needed to be changed - on both sides of industry - but re-building could have done that. Maggie chose destruction and the reassertion of the Establishment in place of power over the working folk of UK. No wonder Blair came along with his 'Partnership' attitudes!

But we digress, this thread is about Maggie being dead. Hurrah!

I suppose a good question for you, Rob, is why is she so very much hated by so very many people if she was a power for good in UK. Not disliked. Hated!

 

[tonyspurs]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Right to buy bought a whole bunch of votes from what was largely hitherto a natural Labour constituency.


Regarding industrial reform under Thatcher Jeltz, the baby was thrown out with the bath water. Her reforms, much of which I would personally describe as vandalism of a treasonous magnitude, were as politically motivated as they were economic.

I've just got to respond to this Shavecraft. Are you seriously suggesting that the labour strongholds were so grateful to Maggie for allowing them to buy their own house that they pledged to support her for the next 10 years?

And as for the baby being thrown out with the bathwater - what baby? If you think it wrong that someone should have a choice whether to join a union as opposed to be foreced to via a closed shop; if you think it right that someone should be able to tell you that you must stop work without asking your opinion; if you think it right that left wing agitators should have carte blanche to bully, harrass, threaten and beat you up because you decide to make your own mind up on an issue - then I suggest that your opinion is at odds with the majority of decent people who wanted a strike and strife free country.

Take a look at the numbers of union members pre and post the legislation - less than half. Does that tell you anything about choice.

I started work in a paper mill in 1979 and it was a closed shop, when the anti union legislation came in not one member of our union left in fact every new employee that was employed from 1982 until I left in 2002 joined the union of their own free will, we never lost a day to strike action which I believe was down to good union leadership and good management from the company, also I would think its obvious why union membership has gone down, if I just use where I live as an example,when I left school in 1978 within a 20 mile radius there was a thriving dockyard a steel mill, Canning town glass works,Royal Doulton potteries and 2 paper mills all major employers in the area, nobody i left school with were unemployed when they left school,now just one paper mill and a dockyard with a part time workforce are left ,the fact that Tesco and McDonald's are the biggest employers of young people in my area speaks volumes.
My 2 sons are 22 & 24 when I was their age I had a secure job,holiday pay,sick pay scheme,company pension scheme a company sport and leisure club plus a regular weekly wage to pay my way and enjoy my young life, my boys have none of these they are lucky if they can get a few weeks work in a row this to me is Thatchers legacy

 

[Dr Rick]

Re: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

This whole thread does rather sum up political discussion in general, doesn't it. Nobody's mind is changed, and each side thinks the other immune to facts, logic, and basic human decency.

And as far as the first two, they're probably both at least half right.

 

[Fido]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Maggie was obviously hated by very many people. But I suspect that a very significant majority don't share that emotion. Those that hate are far more likely to express their opinions than those who appreciated her achievements.

 

[JohnnyO]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

I'm a little puzzled, whilst I wasn't of age to vote through the late seventies to early nineties, how did this woman stay in office for three terms, two by fairly bloody huge margins and up until she was kyboshed by members of her own party, mainly that low down Europro traitor ponce Heseltine, she probably would have seen a fourth term.

Just asking like.

Not being an apologist for any politician and having no political alliances I can't offer any great insight into the success of either Thatcher or Blair RB. However I'd guess as one who was struggling to buy our three room terraced house in the seventies and lived through the shortened working week of Heath's government, the 27% inflation rate, the petrol shortages & a mortgage which was running in the region of 15% interest many of us ordinary working peeps were as sick of and alienated from what the politicians of the day were offering as, well, many of us are now. Did I mention the rat infested uncollected rubbish in the streets ?
Since, as far as I recall, we were in any event in thrall to being bailed out by the IMF whoever came in to power was always going to have to implement the type of stringent policies we now can witness in Greece & Cyprus. With the same type of economic pain. Add to this the (in my view) fairly extreme monetary policies of people such as Thatcher, Tebbit & Joseph and hard times were always in view. That the conservative government kept getting elected suggests, to me, that many voters felt "something had to be done" to balance the books. As far as the % of total votes alloted to one party or another, well, that's the system we have. In the recent referendum the opportunity to move to a system of proportional representation was decisively rejected by those who voted. So, first past the post it remains. And, as far as I read, in England it takes more voters in a constituency to elect a conservative MP than a labour one. An inequality (if true) which lost its opportunity to be rectified when the libs chose not to support the recommendations of the boundary commision.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:

 

[shavecraft]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Thatcher used the power of the State to crush the workers of this country rather than build new, attractive industries and jobs.

Then who the fuck kept on voting her into power? Non workers, the idle rich?

A minority of the population who had views such as yours and who got past the post first.

Fact is mate, there were more people glad to see the union stranglehold removed than those who preferred it. As for industrial stagnation - that started years before she ever came into a position of influence.

The Unions had grown very powerful - a reaction to Capitalism seeking better opportunities abroad. I wqs sea-going in those days and saw a British company being allowed to rot and then finding a new shipyard and/or drydock being opened by the same company in Singapore, say.

Industrial stagnation started after WWII. All things conspired to come to a head and Maggie stepped in to destroy. Many things needed to be changed - on both sides of industry - but re-building could have done that. Maggie chose destruction and the reassertion of the Establishment in place of power over the working folk of UK. No wonder Blair came along with his 'Partnership' attitudes!

But we digress, this thread is about Maggie being dead. Hurrah!

I suppose a good question for you, Rob, is why is she so very much hated by so very many people if she was a power for good in UK. Not disliked. Hated!

+1. We're simpatico on this Carl. Only nuance, I don't personally celebrate her passing (but certainly don't criticise those that do), but do condemn and regret a great deal of her legacy.

 

[Bechet]

RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Maggie was obviously hated by very many people. But I suspect that a very significant majority don't share that emotion. Those that hate are far more likely to express their opinions than those who appreciated her achievements.

Peter, that is a scandulous and un-supportable assertion! Your suspicion fares no better when it comes to evidence.

 

[Dr Rick]

Re: RE: Lady Thatcher Passes Away.

Maggie was obviously hated by very many people. But I suspect that a very significant majority don't share that emotion. Those that hate are far more likely to express their opinions than those who appreciated her achievements.

And the hatred runs in both directions, as witnessed by the Daily Mail's extraordinary, poisonous and hypocritical front-page witchhunting over the last few days.