Internet identity - a discusssion

BNP has nothing to do with the way I feel about ID cards (well actually the National Identity Database that goes behind it) - they will be no more barrier to terrorism than a roll of Andrex (other toilet papers are available) - unless they are mounted on full body armour made of kevlar. If you can make it, you can fake it.

As for rigorous process of identification - this is a quote from Phil Woolas, Government minister for the North West of England

“Having been through the enrolment process this morning, I can vouch for the fact it is simple, secure and only takes around 15 minutes.”
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15 minutes! Looking deep into him being who he claims to be there, highly secure :roll:

Add to that the comic ability of public bodies to lose data left, right and centre - leaves me *very* uneasy about the whole thing.
 
Arrowhead said:
On a tenuously related topic, one thing which is on my mind at the moment, because it's driving my wife to distraction, is the business of passwords. Her work as a librarian requires her to remember several strong passwords, and to change them at regular intervals. For instance, to take a 20p fine from a borrower, she has to log onto a terminal with a username and password every time; to access the catalogue it's a different one, and so on. This strikes me as a preposterous productivity killer, and frequently leaves her distressed when she forgets which one to use. Add to this the passwords for Amazon, online email, Facebook etc. and there's a real problem. I think I may have made some headway on this by suggesting a system for generating memorable strong passwords: I certainly hope so. Does anyone else struggle with this, or shall I tell her that she's on her own?
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Passphrases are the answer - odd times I've had to give tech support at work my password and they're in awe that I can remember it... usually it's a memorable passage from a book - for a long time it was "TAOOVWAS2MSIHEATCP" which is simply the opening line from "The Hound of the Baskervilles"

Since she's in a library, there should be no shortage of books to choose from :D
 
Tried passphrases, in fact that's my method, but the library in its wisdom requires upper and lower case, numbers and special characters which complicates things a bit too much given that she's already got herself in a tizzy about it. I suggested something on the model of CEsiAFo$ (Clint Eastwood stars in A Fistful of Dollars - not original and lacking a number), but she just looked at me as if I'd started speaking Klingon.
 
Storage and security of data has become an issue because electronic storage, collation and transmission technology seems to have evolved faster than the ability of most organisations (including goverments)and individuals to develop procedures which ensure the security and integrity of this data. That data is also easier to collate, store and access means that organisations need not spend too much time debating the ethics or strategy of gathering and retaining information; think how cheap digital cameras and electronic storage have become.

The easy transportation of huge amounts of data on a cd or memory stick makes us think; 'Ahhh, I can take this home and work on it over the weekend', putting convenience and ease of access ahead of any concern about duty of care towards the security of that information. If the data you wanted to look at was contained in eight large paper files the size of a phone directory you would not be arsed taking it home on the train or in your car.

Just because governments, corporations and individuals have the technical capability to store, monitor and carry information has not relieved them of the responsibility for deciding if they really need to do it, and if there is they need then to develop robust procedures with regards to ethics and security.

I am against the ID card because I do not understand under what circumstances I would need to produce it and who has the right to ask me for it. As I understand it the UK has survived OK without these cards so far, so what has changed?
 
Excellent post Philamac, very eloquent. Of course, they have been used before, as my mum would tell you, back when she used to spend her evenings under the stairs waiting for the doodlebugs to start falling. That constitutes a set of circumstances when ID cards might be required, ie. war, which is emphatically not the same as a "war on terror".
 
Arrowhead said:
On a tenuously related topic, one thing which is on my mind at the moment, because it's driving my wife to distraction, is the business of passwords. Her work as a librarian requires her to remember several strong passwords, and to change them at regular intervals. For instance, to take a 20p fine from a borrower, she has to log onto a terminal with a username and password every time; to access the catalogue it's a different one, and so on. This strikes me as a preposterous productivity killer, and frequently leaves her distressed when she forgets which one to use. Add to this the passwords for Amazon, online email, Facebook etc. and there's a real problem. I think I may have made some headway on this by suggesting a system for generating memorable strong passwords: I certainly hope so. Does anyone else struggle with this, or shall I tell her that she's on her own?
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I feel for her. At the s**t bank job I had, we AUTOMATICALLY had our passwords reverted back to something like 1234, every 2 weeks on monday mornng. This meant we had to change it to something COMPLETELY new.
Also, the system kept a memory of previous 6 months passwords, so that we didn't choose them again. You couldn't do apple1, apple2 , apple3 for example, as it would remember parts of the word. Together with the safe password, alarm code and so on, was a pain in the ar*e.

Surely all his security comes because of criminals? i.e. people like ourselves but who have chosen to use illegal means. No crime = no security? I remember my dad telling me about his days in Africa and India where if doors were left unlocked, it was not a problem etc. I also read a similar thing about the UK in the 40's I think it was.
 
sonny said:
Arrowhead said:
Surely all his security comes because of criminals? i.e. people like ourselves but who have chosen to use illegal means. No crime = no security? I remember my dad telling me about his days in Africa and India where if doors were left unlocked, it was not a problem etc. I also read a similar thing about the UK in the 40's I think it was.
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I am sure there were burglars back then too. People can behave amorally but they tend to behave rationally. Back in the forties our houses tended not to contain DVD players, flat screen TVs, and most people did not have a lot of cash. In short there was a lot less to nick and probably less of a market for stolen goods, therefore people were less likely to opt for house-breaking as a viable career. Probably too there were more people about (women staying at home to raise the kids and not having a career instead) during the day which would put burglars off, think about where you live and what most of your neighbours do Mon-Fri 9-5, your street may be like a ghost town then.

I know a little row of houses nearby where they do leave doors open, but the people there are all retired and are generally in gardens, or round and about so there are eyes everywhere which might dissuade burglars.
 
sonny said:
Surely all his security comes because of criminals?
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A lot of it's security theatre though - it gives the appearance of security but dig a little and you find it's all show. More than once I've inadvertently gone through airport security with a heap of prohibited items - screwdrivers usually. Conversely I've had dangerous weapons like emery boards removed from me because the "security" "operative" decided it was a nailfile and therefore banned... the 13A plug off my electric toothbrush charger similarly removed - I suspect because their kettle needed a new plug...

Slightly more unusually on September 15th 2001, I was due to meet a representative of American Airlines at JFK airport (4 days after the 9/11 attack) - I didn't know what she looked like, she didn't know what I looked like - I asked for her by name at the AA desk and she took me (and my rather bulky bag) airside with no ID checks on me at all while they were literally stripping people in the 'security' queue. That day, the real me could easily have been bumped off and used as a ruse to get into the airport and on to a plane...

Since I'm someone that habitually sets off the metal detector, I've caused panic at Brussels Airport by telling the guy his machine's broken. Him telling me that it's not and when he waved in the 1lb test piece of metal the alarm didn't go off... how many people went through unchecked?

It's all show and no actual action - if it actually did something, it would be worthwhile, but how does taking the shoes off everybody and making their trousers fall down (like they do at Frankfurt for 'high risk flights' to UK, Ireland, US, Israel) make it safer... How many people do you suppose the question "are you a terrorist?" catches on the US Immigration form?

Someone seriously needs to show how a piece of plastic 85.60 × 53.98 mm is going to enhance anyone's security - unless you carry it in your top left pocket, it's made of armoured material and that's where the person planning to shoot you aims.
 
philamac said:
sonny said:
Arrowhead said:
Surely all his security comes because of criminals? i.e. people like ourselves but who have chosen to use illegal means. No crime = no security? I remember my dad telling me about his days in Africa and India where if doors were left unlocked, it was not a problem etc. I also read a similar thing about the UK in the 40's I think it was.
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Click to expand...

I am sure there were burglars back then too. People can behave amorally but they tend to behave rationally. Back in the forties our houses tended not to contain DVD players, flat screen TVs, and most people did not have a lot of cash. In short there was a lot less to nick and probably less of a market for stolen goods, therefore people were less likely to opt for house-breaking as a viable career. Probably too there were more people about (women staying at home to raise the kids and not having a career instead) during the day which would put burglars off, think about where you live and what most of your neighbours do Mon-Fri 9-5, your street may be like a ghost town then.

I know a little row of houses nearby where they do leave doors open, but the people there are all retired and are generally in gardens, or round and about so there are eyes everywhere which might dissuade burglars.
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True. I guess you can't point your finger at one thing. It's a collection of things and the way some (maybe most, depending on who you talk to) of society is heading. The root seems to be the basic desires: consumption/greed etc. Trouble is, I believe it's in our hands too, and In general, we are so good at lapping up whatever companies throw at us. A minority often causes problems for the majority.
 
This will be my only political contribution to the Board in general and this thread in particular. This forum is for shave talk: Guido's is for politico cynicism.

I am against ID cards primarily because I am a libertarian.

However (here we go!) I think the thought that Gordon Brown is recommending them as "the right thing to do" would suggest to me that that it is a fundamentally flawed proposition which will be over-budget, unworkable and ridiculed by all right thinking people...

There'll be dancing in the streets of Raith tonight.

:?
 
Interesting one for me this. ID cards are a very emotive subject, understandably so. If (when?) they are introduced will it be mandatory to carry them in public? Will designated officials be empowered to require you to produce the document upon demand? It goes on and on.
In case any of us are in any doubt about being required to furnish "ID" what about your passport? OK! if you do not wish to travel to another country you do not need a passport. Try flying internally in the UK without one. Finally, what about driving? If a police officer reasonably believes that you have been the driver involved in a moving traffic offence or a road traffic collision, he can require you to produce your documents. Sounds reasonable? Most people would agree. What if a police officer stops you driving your vehicle and requires you to produce the same documents. No accident, no offence, no explanation required why you were stopped. Does that sound reasonable?
Quote; "The police do not need any reason to stop any person driving, attempting to drive or in charge of a motor vehicle on a road for a routine check. The police can then require that you provide your name, date of birth, driving licence and insurance details. Failure to comply with any of these requirements is an offence."
If that is not a compulsory ID check what is?
"Can I see your license sir / madam?" /"Can I see your ID card sir / madam?"
I personally have still to make my mind up about ID cards, not about civil liberties, about how much actual assistance to national security they would be.
 
rangers62 said:
What if a police officer stops you driving your vehicle and requires you to produce the same documents. No accident, no offence, no explanation required why you were stopped. Does that sound reasonable?
Quote; "The police do not need any reason to stop any person driving, attempting to drive or in charge of a motor vehicle on a road for a routine check. The police can then require that you provide your name, date of birth, driving licence and insurance details. Failure to comply with any of these requirements is an offence."
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I don't have a problem with that, especially given the number of disqualified/uninsured drivers and drivers who have never passed a test. But if I'm walking down the street going about my business then I would be worried if the police or a private security guard or sny government employee was able to ask me for ID without a really really good reason. I would be afraid that if this ID card is produced it will not just be policemen who will be able to ask me to produce it on demand.
 
I never carry my car docs or driving licence about with me - unless I'm en route to the police station because I've got a HO/RT1 (I used to get about 10-12 a week when I was younger - to the extent I used to save them up and take them all in on a Friday night on my way out to the pub and pick them up on the way home - curiously over 90% of them were from the same cop, but I digress) - they're just the thing to have nicked along with your car...
 
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