Bluffers Guide to British Triple Milled

[pjgh]

Brill! Thank you @NeilJ. Perfect!

Yeah, I've looked for pictures of TOBS boxes and found just that on Amazon but without a date, it's a tough one to verify. You've provided the authenticity I needed for that soap. The Traditional might well have a different ingredient set from scant information I've found. The ingredient list here for the Sandalwood appears closer to the LEA 2017 Reformulation than any of its British siblings. As you can see from the table, Arran used a very similar formulation when they used to be called Arran Aromatics (rather than Arran Sense of Scotland as they are now) and also Edwin Jagger.

TOBS are a bit awkward, but I don't mind ... things that don't fit are often what leads us to look at the whole thing again from a different angle.

 

[pjgh]

Amazing! I've had a reply from TOBS with the "official" ingredients lists for Traditional & Sandalwood ... and, I don't believe them! Why? One list has no (zero, zilch) Aqua (Water) and the other is a list that bears no relation to anything I've seen before and different to any picture of a retail box.

Huh!

 

[pjgh]

Give or take, I think this is about it! Presenting, The Definitive Guide to British Triple-Milled Shaving Soap.

I'm streamlining this somewhat with the removal of a lot of chaff and a red-herring with the LEA formulation which, after looking through the whole lot again, I'm quite sure simply I've just got wrong and joined dots together that don't dot together.

What I have come to understand is that actually, the current Trumpers, TOBS, T&H and Floris are actually all different formulations, but that's not to say that they're not all made by the same (new) supplier. There are a number of peripheral names that adhere to the core formulation of some of these names from the London Cartel and I've shown that in the (new) table. I've also put in an Edwin Jagger/Muhle section since there does appear to be some consistency there and there's a curious throwback to Boots vintage, which I believe is an old Culmak formulation. We understand that Culmak is the new supplier to the good bases used by the big names and I think this lends some credence to that.

So, once again, presenting: The Definitive Guide to British Triple-Milled Shaving Soap



I'll largely copy and paste from the previous post so that there's the full and running story presented here rather than having to flick back and forth.

Standard Company Limited were bought by Soapworks in 2012 but clearly did not carry the knowledge and expertise forward and quite frankly decimating the standard of British shaving soaps, particularly among the London Cartel.

We can see quite clearly that the big names Crabtree & Evelyn, Penhaligon's, Trumpers, Truefitt & Hill, Taylor of Old Bond Street and other established names like Vulfix, possibly also Floris and further afield Musgo Real were all supplied by Standard (marked as Standard in the table). With the Soapworks acquisition came reformulation for these houses (marked as Soapworks in the table). The Standard formulation was known-good and vintage spotters should seek the ingredient sets (as layed out in the Key in the table) to confirm what they're buying is of the vintage they are seeking.

Some of the brands went through a further reformulation during the 2010s which is presumably a second Soapworks formulation (marked as Soapworks II in the table) and a couple called it a day at that point, ceasing the sales of shaving soap altogether - Crabtree & Evelyn certainly enjoyed both Soapworks formulations, while I'm still hazy as to whether Penhaligon's accepted the second formulation. Trumpers certainly did and to this day maintain that there's "absolutely nothing wrong with it" despite, I'm told, not using it themselves in their shop < they use the creams. The soap makes for a poor lathering experience - thin, foamy and dissipates on the face within seconds and visibly on the brush thereafter. In use, the residual slip is more of a juddering sensation.

Rather than accept the second formulation, some brands looked elsewhere. Most notably, Truefitt & Hill and Taylor of Old Bond Street, but also Vulfix. We have a common notion that this new formulation is from Culmak, but I don't have absolute confirmation of that ... largely because I cannot find a Culmak ingredient list with that base ingredient set.

What is clear is that each of the big names has a new formulation that is actually unique to them and the table does show whether the formulation is good, or otherwise - that's Trumpers, Truefitt & Hill, Taylor of Old Bond Street & Floris and, of course, DR Harris.

Let's just run through those ...

• Trumpers continue with a poor-performing formulation which we suspect is a Soapworks reformulation.
• T&H now have a clearly good formulation, so much so that Scottish Fine Soaps and later Mitchell's Wool Fat move to the same base, abandoning their hitherto tallow-based offering. Note that Trumpers Oxford Blue and Officer & Gentleman appear to be the T&H formulation.
• TOBS maintain a couple of quite different formulations for their offerings, both good.
• Floris, again slightly different formulation, but known-good and Arran appear to have adopted that formulation.
• DR Harris is the only tallow-based producer from this group now, with a couple of minor variations to their known-good formulation. Cyril R Salter adheres to this formulation and Captain Fawcett also appear to be making use of their formulation, offering further scent profiles.

I've put in an Edwin Jagger section, which I'd previously mis-identified as related to LEA (I now don't think that's correct) but it's worth having this in because it relates out to Muhle and also Carthusia who appear to use the same/highly related ingredient set. What is perhaps more important is that I have some vintage Boots which bears the very same ingredient set to current Edwin Jagger and I believe that vintage soap to be a Culmak formulation ... which might lend some credence to our shared notion that Culmak are now the supplier across the board, practically, for the Brits.

On that, it's worth pointing at Culmak's own current offering as a decidedly bad formulation that probably isn't worth bothering with. That formulation appears to have been adopted by EcoWarrior whose once good shaving bar is also now a bit of a dud. This also appears to be where Czech & Speake have landed.

Once again, for your own comparisons and for the sake of hunting down vintage examples, I've put what I think are the base formulations in the key - green is good, red is bad, dark red particularly so (and worrying for perhaps if the current good formulations are supplied by Culmak, given the trend now not only away from tallow but also palm) and dark green for good/tallow-based. Amber is where I'm still filling in the blanks and/or don't have direct experience of the soap.

Happy hunting!

I will continue to update the table itself as more comes to light, but the story most likely remains the same ... or similar ... or something ...

 

[pjgh]

Amazing! I've had a reply from TOBS with the "official" ingredients lists for Traditional & Sandalwood ... and, I don't believe them! Why? One list has no (zero, zilch) Aqua (Water) and the other is a list that bears no relation to anything I've seen before and different to any picture of a retail box.

Huh!

Actually, hold the front page guys!

TOBS Sandalwood Reformulation?

Hi folks! I've been obsessed of late with British triple-milled soaps (no kidding - see: https://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/community/threads/bluffers-guide-to-british-triple-milled.59374) and was struggling to find accurate information on the TOBS soaps, so reached out to them for some ingredient...

www.theshavingroom.co.uk

 

[Sabre]

As I mentioned/implied previously, soap manufacturers buy in soap noodles as a raw material so a soap manufacturer may use a similar formulation to a competitor. A quick Google search found three suppliers of shaving soap noodles.

 

[Geofnay]

Brill! Thanks for this. How's the lather - genuinely curious.

Although M&S' Apothecary soap appears to have disappeared from the chart, I did some test lathers tonight: dessert spoon of boiling water (rested for 7 minutes, so c. 70C) to bloom the soap (I'm nothing if not scientific); brushes - mixed badger and boar, then boar.
The scent is nice enough, the ingredients referencing cedar.
The mixed knot lathered the soap easily but, despite palm lathering for a good while, the lather remained frothy and airy and wouldn't produce the sort of lather I would put to my face to shave.
The boar fared slightly better, maybe because it picked up more soap but, again, the result would not have allowed me to shave.
I could use it as the base for super lather but that's not really the point.
A 'no' from me.

 

[Sabre]

Although M&S' Apothecary soap appears to have disappeared from the chart, I did some test lathers tonight: dessert spoon of boiling water (rested for 7 minutes, so c. 70C) to bloom the soap (I'm nothing if not scientific); brushes - mixed badger and boar, then boar.
The scent is nice enough, the ingredients referencing cedar.
The mixed knot lathered the soap easily but, despite palm lathering for a good while, the lather remained frothy and airy and wouldn't produce the sort of lather I would put to my face to shave.
The boar fared slightly better, maybe because it picked up more soap but, again, the result would not have allowed me to shave.
I could use it as the base for super lather but that's not really the point.
A 'no' from me.

Thank you. I was going to pick this up at the weekend...

 

[pjgh]

While I like the idea of where it looks like the formulation of the British Cartel is going (given the silent reformulation of TOBS, Edwin Jagger < related and also Captain Fawcett) it was actually the TOBS Traditional that really caught my eye ... what I've noticed is that it is actually spot-on the self-same formulation as the much revered Standard Company Ltd base that T&H used pre-2011.

TOBS Traditional (Current - confirmed by TOBS this very week):
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Stearic Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Paraffinum Liquidum, Isopropyl, Myristate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, BHT, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Penetate, CI 77891

T&H:
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Stearic Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Paraffinum Liquidum, Isopropyl Myristate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, BHT, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, CI 77891

^ I gleaned this nugget from a post on The Shave Den which was written in 2009 so, confirmed pre-2011 rather than someone after 2011 asserting that their purchase was prior: https://theshaveden.com/forums/threads/products-ingredients-database.4410/

The base formulation: Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Stearic Acid, Parfum (Fragrance) is common to T&H and Vulfix.

For the sake of completeness in this post, here's T&H current formulation:
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Stearate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Cocoate, Glycerin, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Titanium Dioxide, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Gluconate, Linalool, Coumarin

TLDR? Folks who want to try a pre-2011 (presumably Standard Company) without hunting down vintage and the risk of ending up with a crappo Soapworks, you could buy a puck of TOBS Traditional.

I just had a refill tablet delivered about an hour ago and the test lather was an absolute joy!

 

[pjgh]

Oh, boy!

MWF Reformulation? Yes! Again!

Over here: https://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/community/threads/tobs-sandalwood-reformulation.59402/ ... I said: "With what appears to be a completely new formulation starting to appear, it's doubtful that those who reformulated recently (meaning T&H and certainly MWF who moved onto their...

www.theshavingroom.co.uk

... taken from https://www.theenglishshavingcompany.com who are showing largely out of stock for TOBS items that we know have a new formulation, Scottish Fine Soaps has a new flavour (new style formulation) and DR Harris is showing mostly out of stock, which a betting person might read as "new formulation coming ...".

It is certainly starting to look like this is across the board now, so fingers crossed this isn't going to be a repeat of the Soapworks fiasco.

 

[pjgh]

Their products weren't tallow-based, but they were fit-for-purpose i.e. the 'good version' of Trumpers. Occasionally they can still be found on eBay; look out for shrink-wrapped soap pucks with a round gold sticker, but no obvious branding

Like this?

 

[MrMurray]

Arran, you say @NeilJ ? I was just looking at them today and finding some similarity with the Floris base.

Floris 89
Potassium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palmate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Stearate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Limonene, Linalool, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Avena Sativa (Oat) Kernel Flour, Geraniol, Coumarin, Citronellol, Hexyl Cinnamal, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

Arran Clary Sage & Rockrose
Potassium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palmate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Stearate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Linalool, Coumarin, Limonene, Cistus Ladaniferus Abs (Gum Rockrose) Extract, Citrus Nobilis (Mandarin) Peel Oil, Salvia Sclarea (Clary Sage) Oil

Arran Patchouli & Anise
Potassium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palmate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Stearate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Linalool, Pentasodium Pentetate, Pogostemon Cablin (Patchouli) Oil, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Limonene, Citronellol, Geraniol, Citrus Limon (Lemon) Oil, Illicium verum (Anise) Oil, Mentha Piperita (Peppermint) Oil

I can't actually find the Floris base in common with really any other soap, let alone having any historical ingredient lists. But, I do see a distinct similarity between these, so guess there's more out there.

I am still looking ...

Meanwhile, I found considerable similarity between current Floris and Ach Brito/Musgo Real formulations:
Potassium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palmate, Aqua/Water, Glycerin, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Stearate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum/Fragrance, PEG-7 Glycerol Cocoate, Sodium Lauryl Sarcosinate, PEG-9 Cocoglycerides, Talc, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Coumarin, Eugenol, Citronellol, Linalool, Limonene, Cinnamyl Alcohol, CI 77007/Ultramarines, CI 77891/Titanium Dioxide, CI 77492/Iron Oxides

... which send me down a rabbit hole where I found a couple of historical formulations.

Ach Brito/Musgo Real (2013)
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate, PEG-9 Cocoglycerides, Sodium Lauryl Sarcosinate, Talc, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, CI 77891, CI 47005, Coumarin, Geraniol, Eugenol, Citronellol, Evernia Furfuracea, Linalool, Limonene, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Butylphenyl Methylpropanol

... which bears considerable resemblance to the ill-fated Soapworks base.

Ach Brito/Musgo Real (circa 2016 Reformulation)
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Palmate, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate, Sodium Lauryl Sarcosinate, PEG-9 Cocoglycerides, Talc, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, CI 77007, CI 47005, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Citronellol, Coumarin, Eugenol, Geraniol, Limonene, Linalool, Evernia Furfuracea Extract

... which I think is related somewhat to the LEA Reformulation of that era.

But, I don't particularly want to go too far down that line as it does veer away from the British lines. It was interesting to see what appears to be the Soapworks DNA finding its way onto the continent where retailers followed suit with the "classy" British names.

Maybe I'll stretch to the likes of LEA, De Vergulde Hand & Muhle since our (British) Edwin Jagger is related to these formulations.

Research is still ongoing with Floris, though and I'll say again that it does not bear a strong resemblance to any of the other British names at present. Out of interest, does anyone have any historical ingredient lists?

As a shaving soap maker I can probably help decipher how they're made if that helps ?!? The order of ingredients is in order of most to least. So by the time you see "parfum" it's typically 3% of oils and butters etc but is often less (because fragrance is expensive). The last mentioned ingredients are the fragrance components that have to be listed. The major ingredients in these soaps seems to be palm oil which is good for making soap and it's cheap. And stearic acid which is the backbone of the soap. The usual goal is to create a soap that has high percentage of combined palmitic and stearic acids. They use dual lyes too which is pretty common in shaving soaps. That's why you see "sodium palmate" and then "potassium palmate".
The curious ingredient is the glycerin which is ranked higher than the aqua (distilled water). Because it's unlikely that they're using more glycerin ( it's also a byproduct of saponification and the use of sodium hydroxide) than water. Although the EU insists by law that manufacturers must list accurately in order of magnitude I've seen some Italian manufacturers juggle the ingredients around in order to stop someone making educated guesses and copying them !!

 

[SeanC]

Like this?

That's the ones

 

[pjgh]

Well, I certainly picked a right time to look at documenting British triple-milled! There does appear to be a groundswell or reformulations going on, which (Darron at Wickham's enlightened me to) has been triggered by the EU banning Pentasodium Pentetate. The new type of formulation carries the hallmark of two new ingredients, "Potassium Laurate" and "Sodium Laurate" (note, they're not new ingredients, but rather it's a new thing that we're seeing them in these soaps) and "Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate" replaces "Pentasodium Pentetate".

Generally, these formulations are coming out as Stearate-first (rather than Palmate-first), which is no bad thing! TOBS & Edwin Jagger are a couple of examples. Some are still opting for a Palmate-first approach, such as MWF & SFS which I highly suspect will be how T&H will reveal in due course; Captain Fawcett, given the strong connection to DRH in their slightly older formulation, I suspect gives us an indication of what DR Harris will look like once on the new formulation (if they do) ... and so, Cyril R Salter, no doubt.

It's kinda looking like this now, as this new formulation unfolds ...

I do have a plea, though ...

I have marked some boxes in yellow, where I simply have not found any credible evidence of a formulation that I can pin to the epoch.

Does anyone have confirmed purchases of TOBS Traditional from pre-2011 (or was it released after the Soapworks acquisiton with that retronym?), or TOBS mainstream from either pre-2011 or post-2011?

I'm also light on what happened to Cyril R Salter after the Soapworks acquistion - I know they were on a Standard base before and move over to DR Harris (certainly the present stock) but I don't know exactly when. It might well be that was circa 2011 and I can fill that box in - I just don't have any credible evidence from posts or photographs of ingredient lists at the time.

I think the story up to 2023 is complete! 2024 onwards looks like a new journey ...

 

[pjgh]

... bit of work on TOBS and added in the alternative T&H formulation (with shea butter) which is slightly different to Floris.

I'm still stuck for what happened to CRS after the Soapworks takeover and struggling to find reference to TOBS Traditional pre-Soapworks but given how the current (yes, current) formulation is spot-on the same as the pre-2011 Standard Company formulation B (as I've named it), I think that's the most likely explanation.

I've reached out to T&H to enquire as to what base their (new) Highgrove & Mayfair soaps are on - regular or shea-enriched? I've also asked the question about what their intentions are now that Pentasodium Pentetate has been outlawed by the EU. I wonder if they'll reveal "New Formulation G" as the base for their newer soaps?

 

[Bogeyman]

Hey Nerds!! In the time it took to research and post all of this your best friend shaved with Barrister & Mann soap and with some of their spectacular AS wooed away your woman on a weekend 'shack up'!! Hubba Hubba!!

 

[pjgh]

Puh! Who wants a woman who can be wooed by a chap that shaves with partially cured slop that smells like a scented candle anyway? Good riddance to both! This shit's classy, man!