A fair few attempts to shoot the messenger in this thread. I wasn’t aware of all this, and it does put me off having any dealings with PAA, when they have such a background in lying and deception. Others may be okay with that, and that’s up to them, but I do think trust and honesty is important in the shaving world. If you can’t even trust the ingredients list on something, why bother supporting that business when there are so many others around, many of whom are struggling to survive in the current climate?
Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements
- Thread starter Ebberman
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Thank you. More than one comment said that this a shaving forum - yes, it is, but so is the site the link leads to.
I believe that the more information you have, the better informed the decision.
Correct. Back in the day when I was a hobbyist the PAA controversy with the ingredients lie was a scandal. It started when someone on Badger and Blade noticed the discrepancy and became a big controversy. It came to the Shave Nook where I was a member and MANY people including myself were angry. The tenor of the thread about it was outrage. To me it was plain fraud and Smyth/Hodges, a crazy slick huckster playing the wet shaving community for suckers. I never bought PAA products after that and felt strongly PAA should have been blacklisted. To me PAA was trying to exploit wet shavers and I strongly resented that. The author of the well written article and Ebberman should be thanked for looking out for our interests and showing the respect for the community that PAA never had.
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Greetings Ebberman,
Ahh this crap is still circulating, pity. First off, don't believe everything you read online. I should point out, since we are sleuthing, reddit is not the best in regard to ethical practices and reliability; what you are quoting is from their "community edited" wiki...which it is not. They even have (last time i checked) a legal disclaimer stating this falsity. It's been locked for almost 8-9 years and our page was only ever been edited by one contributor, so keep that in mind, not community edited. Also, this stuff goes back to over ten years ago, it was a short time and not a long infamous history.
If anything we have a long history of giving and growing the community for all: I'd Lather Be Shaving (youtube show), Moustache & Blade Podcast, Cutting Edge Podcast, The Big Shave West (a free shaving event where we invite other, often smaller or what some might call our competition, to also participate in), Community Fundraising, Always at the ready to help, etc...we have done a lot but this often gets left out of the conversation in certain forums. Did I personally make some mistakes over a decade ago? Yes. Which I will forever admit to and apologize for. However, much of what you read is straight up BS by trolls. And I will defend myself against these lies.
Seems like every time I read one of these "dissuasion posts" (because lets be honest, that's what it is), there is always something new or twisted like this glowing reviews thing? [If your goal really was to truly share information, maybe reaching out to us for comments or any questions that you may have about our business practices would have been a more responsible, balanced & respectful way to go about this?]
We, like every other artisan out there will send out product for review, but that's it. They are not in exchange for anything. If they like it, they like it, if they don't, they don't and they can freely say whatever they want. I suggest fact checking me by reaching out to any one of them. Also, we have about 5 reviewers we send to at any one time during the years, others you see are buying their own products to review. I am unsure of your "source" but I bet it will not pass the sniff test or any real scrutiny. This is always the case with these group think conjectures and speculations, or what I have seen called, threads that go nowhere.
As for ingredients; What you are referring to happened over ten years back when we were one of the first 5 artisans on the scene. We were new to this and label design thing and still learning. I had listed ingredients on the label in the wrong order. That's it. Meaning: Everything listed was actually in the product. Also note, we had caught this mistake and fixed the label to be in line with the FDA weeks earlier...however, that first label was still out there and eventually someone in Badger n Blade bought a used tin and made a post about it. I commented in that post a few days later (page 4 I believe?) but by that time, the damage was done and it had turned into We Lie About What's Inside. This is how fast and easy stuff gets twisted online. Actually, we were the FIRST U.S. Artisan to be EU Certified. For years it was just us. Even small we chose to invest in this to make it easier on fans of our brand over seas to get some PAA. It was a long, arduous and expensive process, especially for a small artisan soapmaker, but we did it. So note, if our ingredients were bunk, that would have surfaced during certification a long time back. So as for "unscrupulous business practices", you can toss that out. This is our passion and livelihood and we wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that.
More Facts: I am one of the owners. Frances is also my partner and owner, and one hell of an artisan soapmaker/perfumer herself. After over 10 years at this, we are now a very serious small business with a facility, lab & 5 employees (who love their jobs). We do EVERYTHING by the book...otherwise we would have disappeared awhile back. I believe the quality of our product and customer service has much to do with the longevity as well.
We do advertise. A lot of that has to do with how poorly we were/are treated in certain forums. In order to survive as a small American business, you need to let people know you are here. When many, many small artisans have disappeared or closed shop during the years, we are still here. If I could just sit back and just make soap & scents, which is really all I want to do, trust me, I would...but alas, it doesn't stop there for me. I wear a lot of hats here and advertising is just one of them; a necessity.
Over the years I have many times responded to these kinds of posts but often they get removed or locked, so I apologize. Again, I personally did make mistakes back when we began, I own them and righted the ship. I think that's important. It's the ones that don't change, grow or learn from what they did wrong that you should be concerned with. And again, many of the wilder and crazier things you read are just false or twisted.
All this said, if anyone ever has any questions or concerns, Fran and I make ourselves SUPER easy to get in contact with, come to the source and at least get some perspective before you believe anything you read in any group, especially run by anonymous posters.
Thanks for taking the time to read this folks.
PS. There is an upside to that Reddit page however, it delivers the most of our converting traffic to our site. So I suppose I should thank them. Shave On!
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Just a heads up my friend, we were the FIRST EU Certified USA Artisan available. We are always happy to answer any questions one may have, we live to help! Shave On!
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Thanks for confirming that.
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I’ve got to say @Douglas Smythe it’s brave to come and face a thread discussing any mistakes you’ve previously made in the past. I don’t condone them but have to say I love your products and feel hopefully you have reached a point where such practices aren’t needed as your products quality does speak for themselves. Everyone deserves a second chance and all that. I only wish you’d get more products UK/EU certified so we can get the balms, EDT’s and as we know shopping splash’s are problematic.
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Anyone feel free to fact check this with our EU Distributor too, El Mirall Distribuciones! I feel it necessary to add that because so much of this drama came out in a time before fact checking was all the rave and so many then just relied on other peoples true or false posted info. Again, if the OG poster really wanted to do a service and Share Knowledge (power), he would have done his due diligence otherwise it's no better than sharing old, tired gossip that can have a real world impact on real people just trying to do their best. Maybe even have a personal interaction with us first, but at the very least reach out with any concerns. Anyways, thanks for the opportunity to respond! Oh and here is our email if this helps: support@phoenixshaving.com
Shave On Gents!
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Thanks mate, I appreciate that! And rest assured, past mistakes were corrected in real time a decade ago. Imagine screwing up and forever being defined by that? I'm not the same person I was last week, never mind 11 years ago! Everyday I try to be a better version of myself, and that's the best I can do. Thanks for your support sir, it means the world to us!
D
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I agree. It's good to come on here and put the record straight. As I mentioned in my post, if people like using the products, what difference does it make.
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I should also note, though I dislike the advertising aspect I try to make it fun. And I am quite passionate about the world building we have done over the years and the ongoing story/saga; Different characters coming and going, anagrams, codes, other easter eggs, etc...even wrote Ebooks and a Softcover! Our labels and ads are portals/windows into this universe! I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm ok with that. Just want to point out we do work really hard and this isn't just some hustle, I really pour my soul and creativity into this. Also, I don't exploit wet shavers, hell I am a wet shaver and collector first! Again, this is my passion and I am always happy to help and educate where I can.
This is the more interesting stuff (I think) we do, and wish would be talked about instead...but sensationalism and negative news always wins out.
This is the more interesting stuff (I think) we do, and wish would be talked about instead...but sensationalism and negative news always wins out.
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Meh! Business is business ... gaining that competitive edge goes a long way to be able to continue to trade and PAA have been "inventive" in doing that. Right or wrong? Whatever. It's a cut-throat world (see what I did there?). What PAA have brought us wet-shavers is a glimpse into the world of vintage that might be beyond many people, bringing smell-alikes and modern versions of (presumably) expired patents of brushes and razors.
I have a vintage Mohawk (PAA Starcraft) but have not yet found a decent Erskine, so love my PAA Doppler in the meantime. I have a lot of vintage soap and even aftershaves, and tend not to like modern formulations ... but many folks will gain that first experience via a smell-alike.
Yeah, it's an interesting read ... but put together by someone who appears to have a right grudge. Are there similar articles for, say, the dastardly Boycie Emporium or the great Mitchell's tallow scandal of batch 9265?
I have a vintage Mohawk (PAA Starcraft) but have not yet found a decent Erskine, so love my PAA Doppler in the meantime. I have a lot of vintage soap and even aftershaves, and tend not to like modern formulations ... but many folks will gain that first experience via a smell-alike.
Yeah, it's an interesting read ... but put together by someone who appears to have a right grudge. Are there similar articles for, say, the dastardly Boycie Emporium or the great Mitchell's tallow scandal of batch 9265?
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lol, DEFINITELY Expired patents! So many more lost classics deserve to return too! Thanks for your support my friend!
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The Cad. The dastard!
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Lastly, and not to beat a dead horse, but Frances had a reply to this thread as well. Since she seldom gets a word in and again, since we seldom are allowed to participate in such posts I think it's relevant. So I shall paste it below.
As far as we are aware this person has never interacted with us, never reached out to ask any questions, and has not done their due diligence, as any good investigative journalist would, or bothered to involve us in this informational post about us, or inform us of any concerns and request a comment.
We don’t even know who this person is, and that has to matter when they are claiming to be a “neutral” arbiter of truth and, as they put it , “just sharing information.” What is the value of this information? Is it to help people make an “informed” decision about what products to purchase? If so, then why not let us know who you are, why you care so much to make a post about our company, that you seem to have no direct relationship with, and why we should hang on your words as a source of reliable information?
Please also consider this, consider that much of the information spread online has been done in this very same way, by anonymous people who will never feel the real effect of their words, in places where we have no voice. When people on one side only talk amongst themselves the story can morph and change. I’m not kidding, have you ever played the game “telephone?” If not, grab a bunch of 7 year olds and play telephone and see what happens.
Imagine someone deciding one day to make an “informational” post about you that contained, at best, some half-truths, and some flatly wrong info, that they didn’t bother to fact check, didn’t bother to approach you about to get your comment, and didn’t care what the potential impact on you would be, for some nebulous reason to “just let people know”. That makes no sense. Anyone spreading this type of information, in this way, who is not going to simply ask us for some comment, should be questioned as to the real motivation behind such a post. What could they possibly be getting out of this? Are they trying to talk poorly of another so that they can feel better about themselves? Generally, what we have seen is that people who are happy and kind and generous try to see the good in others, or at least have the decency to involve us directly in any proposed public commentary about our business, its practices, or who we are as human beings.
Some of the stories I have heard about our company simply live inside these big sad echo chambers whose walls are lined with years and years of crusty layers of nonsense and hyperbole. Thanks for your time.
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All the Best,
Frances Towle
As far as we are aware this person has never interacted with us, never reached out to ask any questions, and has not done their due diligence, as any good investigative journalist would, or bothered to involve us in this informational post about us, or inform us of any concerns and request a comment.
We don’t even know who this person is, and that has to matter when they are claiming to be a “neutral” arbiter of truth and, as they put it , “just sharing information.” What is the value of this information? Is it to help people make an “informed” decision about what products to purchase? If so, then why not let us know who you are, why you care so much to make a post about our company, that you seem to have no direct relationship with, and why we should hang on your words as a source of reliable information?
Please also consider this, consider that much of the information spread online has been done in this very same way, by anonymous people who will never feel the real effect of their words, in places where we have no voice. When people on one side only talk amongst themselves the story can morph and change. I’m not kidding, have you ever played the game “telephone?” If not, grab a bunch of 7 year olds and play telephone and see what happens.
Imagine someone deciding one day to make an “informational” post about you that contained, at best, some half-truths, and some flatly wrong info, that they didn’t bother to fact check, didn’t bother to approach you about to get your comment, and didn’t care what the potential impact on you would be, for some nebulous reason to “just let people know”. That makes no sense. Anyone spreading this type of information, in this way, who is not going to simply ask us for some comment, should be questioned as to the real motivation behind such a post. What could they possibly be getting out of this? Are they trying to talk poorly of another so that they can feel better about themselves? Generally, what we have seen is that people who are happy and kind and generous try to see the good in others, or at least have the decency to involve us directly in any proposed public commentary about our business, its practices, or who we are as human beings.
Some of the stories I have heard about our company simply live inside these big sad echo chambers whose walls are lined with years and years of crusty layers of nonsense and hyperbole. Thanks for your time.
--
All the Best,
Frances Towle