Bluffers Guide to British Triple Milled

Detail is fun, but I think we need a crib-sheet:

ABLVV87bGUGu2yTuUgZ-ZlpAMdSMe1b1iOSyMh9HWCvhy_2WQIuo1f-3y9RuTVI5Sp6g09uy_Msv5oYTZIEZWQ130ED-KmVIO3hnIZLcjVKiJad51r8TbWAj2EFEGx2JheEkQPaaKLX6FRahnX_bzVd3X44TQg=w1200


Key
Green is good, dark green "gooder".
Red is bad.
Blue are variations of the 2024 formulations that are unfolding, but all good. Consider blue as an age of enlightenment, if you will.
White text is for tallow soaps.

Vintage tallow is all over the place, but I think we can agree that "they're the great ones" and so I've just listed "T" as the ingredients and moved on. The rest of the codes are self-explanatory once you look at the ingredient lists in full and give us a shortcut to the summary - yes, I've ignored the placement of Aqua/Water (since they're triple-milled and so water is pretty much expelled post-saponation/saponification?) and of Glycerin since it's both an ingredient and a by-product (from what little I actually know about soap making).

I've tried to put useful notes in and embolden really useful items. I've also speculatively put 2024 boxes for the crap soaps still out there in the hope that they'll ... errr, reform? reformulate! and the pending release of the Floris shea-enriched base, which I think we'll see from T&H Apsley reformulation first (like we've yet to see DRH's but get a very good idea from the current Captain Fawcett - yes, CF is the Cap, not Castle Forbes).

There are a couple of observations for folks unwilling to risk buying vintage but just want a taste ...

If you were to own the vegetal Tabac from 2021 (or the very latest TOBS 2024 base), that formulation is potentially a revival of the legacy Floris/TOBS Stearate base which was around before the turbulent decade of the 2010s. Likewise, if you're quick and bag a current tablet of TOBS Traditional then you'll have a soap that's very much akin to Standard Company base pre-2011.
 
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NatJag said:
It amuses me how you've put 'unlikely' for the GFT soap
Click to expand...

Haha!

Actually, it is based on some rational thinking ... the current reformulation (the ones in blue) are most likely down to the EU's deadline on Pentesodium Pentetate back in December 2023. Neither the current GFT or the recently reformulated C&S have this ingredient and so there's no urgency for them to do anything.

Soaps like Tabac or Speick who reformulated in 2021 to this new-style of formulation BUT still had Pentesodium Pentetate in will likely silently reformulate again shortly and replace that with Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate in line with everyone else's VERY similar formulations.

I do hope the weight of the market from a supplier-side comes to bear on GFT (and C&S) because they do have superb scents and once great reputations. These houses on the current T&H & DRH formulations would be perfect!
 
pjgh said:
My head hurts now ...

Deeper dive on Floris as owner of Broad Oak Toiletries and I'm seeing something like five or even six core formulations across a decade, but it boils down to:

Tallowate
Stearate-first
Potassium Palmate ... Stearate
Potassium Palmate ... no Stearate
Sodium Palmate (all Sodium) < the "Dark Age"
Potassium Palmate ... Shea Butter
Click to expand...

... and I find another confirmed "bad" formulation for Floris making it five reformulations during the 2010s with a legacy Stearate (c.1980s and quite common with TOBS and Boots of the era) and an older Tallowate (c.1970s):

Vintage Tallowate < assumed "good"
Soap Base, Fragrance, Glycerin, Mineral Oil, Titanium Dioxide

Legacy Stearate <much in common with legacy Boots (c.1980s)
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Potassium Cocoate, Sodium Cocoate, Aqua (Water), Parfum (Fragarance), Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide), Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Silicate, Magnesium Sulfate

Floris Potassium Palmate A < Floris/Broad Oak Toiletries "good" (c.early 2010s?)
Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Stearate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Linalool, Coumarin, Evernia Furfuracea (Treemoss) Extract, Geraniol, Limonene, Eugenol, Cinnamal, Citronellol, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

Floris Potassium Palmate B < Floris/Broad Oak Toiletries "good" (c.early 2010s?)
Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Sodium Chloride, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Limonene, Linalool, Geraniol, Citronellol, Coumarin, Citral, Evernia Prunastri (Oakmoss) Extract, Benzyl Benzoate, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

Floris Sodium Palmate A < Floris/Broad Oak Toiletries "bad" (pre-2016?)
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Fatty Acid, Sodium Chloride, CI 77891, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Limonene, Linalool, Geraniol, Citronellol, Coumarin

Floris Sodium Palmate B (Shea-Enriched) < Floris/Broad Oak Toiletries "bad" (photographed 2013 so, pre-Floris/Broad Oak split, so pre/post-2016?)
Sodium Palmate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Citric Acid, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter, Limonene, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionene, Linalool, Eugenol, Hydroxyisohexyl 3-Cyclohexene Carboxaldehyde, Benzyl Alcohol, Citral, Geraniol, Coumarin, Citronellol, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

Floris Shea-Enriched < Floris "good" (c.2018)
Potassium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palmate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Stearate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Limonene, Linalool, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Avena Sativa (Oat) Kernel Flour, Geraniol, Coumarin, Citronellol, Hexyl Cinnamal, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)

... and this is where it's really hazy because we know that Floris & Broad Oak Toiletries parted ways in 2016 with Potter & Moore picking up the stock and equipment. TOBS had a known reformulation in 2016 but I'm not finding anything for Floris until 2018.

This tells us that either Floris had already moved to a non-Broad Oak Toiletries formulation prior to 2016 (and I'm thinking 2013 given I have a confirmed photograph from that year of a very Soapworks-later like formulation but shea-enriched) or that my assumption that GFT's second bad reformulation was Soapworks is wrong and it's actually some other manufacturer. This makes some sense as we're also seeing this formulation for C&E & Pen's who we know were also on Broad Oak Toiletries formulations ... and Boots who appear to have some common heritage with Floris & TOBS and also M&S with current M&S and Bulldog also on this bad type of formulation.

Maybe Broad Oak Toiletries got something very wrong somewhere prior to 2013 hence the flurry of reformulations within the Floris line (Floris owned Broad Oak Toiletries) and other names like TOBS, C&E & Pen's who were recipients of these formulations ... other suppliers were used and finally Floris ditch Broad Oak Toiletries in 2016; meanwhile, C&E & Pen's give up on shaving soap altogether. Maybe those other suppliers were also reached out to by, say, GFT who moved onto that formulation after such negative feedback of their Soapworks choice.

So, "Soapworks II" in the chart could well be A.N.Other ... and that does make a lot of sense.
 
Minor update regarding Scottish Fine Soaps and reports that they have two formulations from 2024 on ... one of which is no good!

Historical Tallow
Potassium Tallowate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Potassium Cocoate, Sodium Chloride, Lanolin, Titanium Dioxide, Tetrasodium EDTA, Magnesium Sulphate, Sodium Sliicate, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Alpha Isomethyl Ionene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool

Reformulation c.2018? to T&H-like Base
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Stearate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Cocoate, Glycerin, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Cannabis Sativa (Hemp) Seed Oil, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Limonene

Reformulation 2024 Vetiver & Sandalwood
Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Sodium Laurate, Potassium Laurate, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum (Fragrance), Titanium Dioxide, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Chloride, Cannabis Sativa (Hemp) Seed Oil, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate

Reformulation 2024 Thistle & Black Pepper
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Stearate, Glycerin, Sodium Laurate, Potassium Laurate, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Chloride, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Linoleic Acid, Sodium Gluconate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Oleic Acid, Palmitic Acid, Silybum Marianum Extract, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, Stearic Acid, Citronellol, Coumarin

... it's this final one which is reported to produce a foamy lather and looking at the major ingredients at the front of the list, that's a lot of sodium!
 
I just bought a refill puck of TOBS Sandalwood from Amazon. When it arrived, the box had a sticker covering the ingredients list. The box listed the first two ingredients as potassium palmate and potassium palm kernelate, but the sticker listed them as potassium stearate and sodium stearate. Just did a test lather and no issues at all.
 
Pontormo said:
I just bought a refill puck of TOBS Sandalwood from Amazon. When it arrived, the box had a sticker covering the ingredients list. The box listed the first two ingredients as potassium palmate and potassium palm kernelate, but the sticker listed them as potassium stearate and sodium stearate. Just did a test lather and no issues at all.
Click to expand...
Perfect!

You've got the 2024 version ... finally. Back in January, they told me about this new formulation and when I ordered my own little over a month ago direct from TOBS upon arrival it was the pre-2024 formulation. Grrr! So, really glad they are now sending the latest formulation.

This is the "TOBS 2024" in blue in the table above. Notice I'd put "Legacy Floris Stearate Revival" in the notes since the ingredient list pretty much follows the pre-2000s Stearate-first formulation. Modern twist. Glad you're happy with the lather and hope you enjoy using it. Personally, I find the scent a bit ... well, perhaps trying too hard is the right phrase. It's not that I don't like it, just that I think I'd like more it with less going on?
 
Seems that uk soaps have changed frequently. Those made abroad don't seem to, thinking about MDC and arko .SV has small tweaks only ,I think, only for improvement instead of a vast changes to the basic formula.
 
Roy said:
Seems that uk soaps have changed frequently. Those made abroad don't seem to, thinking about MDC and arko .SV has small tweaks only ,I think, only for improvement instead of a vast changes to the basic formula.
Click to expand...

Indeed, there have been many changes especially when you consider that the first four columns represent not even the last 15 years!

I have not looked much at the European scene other than the few that I happened to have or by virtue of some relationship with a British line (like Muhle for Edwin Jagger or Valobra for C&S), but there have been sweeping changes across the board in the last 3-5 years ... firstly, the move from tallow to palmate (like Tabac/Speick in 2021 which appears to be a global shift - aviation fuel, perhaps? look it up) and then again with the ban on Tetrasodium Pentetate in the EU forcing a further round of reformulations for 2024.

Individual lines, such as LEA have been through numerous iterations in the last decade (I've found 6 distinct formulations going back to 2010), likewise Ach Brito/Musgo Real ... and Dr Dittmar & De Vergulde Hand. L'Occitane, of course, moved from wonderful to unusable as did Plisson (same formulation, I think) but those represent only one or two seismic changes. Compare that to Trumpers, who went from good to unusable - that's one change. Trumpers do go back into the vintage era and so there's a bit more history behind them. I'm sure if I was to be able to check back into the historical formulations of European lines we'd see more.

The trouble with going back beyond the 1990s is that INCI was not a thing and soap ingredients might not be listed at all or could be obfuscated or just listed like this lovely piece of history from Floris:

AP1GczPyNXeJT1szwGBjdwc1mDfWJv8OlXukxjfByaPPwyXIxr-iWqxUhLRmuIe6WXB1TZJ4gnCeKMYyoi8BXQMkrB5OcKXEEbTuMVbg94-rq9T0YqXOQmKgi-OKtNIJQvz8JGOVQWvIdqMEO1-s5lLZg1uKHw=w1200


"Soap Base" ... and none of the minor chemicals, fixatives and whatnot.

It would be interesting to continue this into a bunch of European names ... but I have to say, it's quite exhausting reading through literally hundreds of posts from 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013 ... and beyond to find actual evidence of formulation changes rather than just pictures of soap that folks have bought years beforehand.

I was lucky (or cursed) to land on doing this while a market-wide reformulation was actually going on. Again, the purpose of this is to put together some actual facts so that folks can buy vintage with confidence. It may not be perfect (almost certainly not going to be) but it's good enough for most buyers.

If the colour chart is not obvious ... red is bad (don't buy it), green is good, yellow is dunno (yet) and blue is unfolding none of which have been found to be duds.
 
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