First hone

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peg20

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This MUST be an FAQ, but I can't find the answers I want anywhere.

I am just starting out with straight razor shaving. I have bought a few :oops: razors in shave-ready condition, and will shave/strop with these and send them off to Neil or Steve as necessary to get them honed.

But in the meantime, I would like to start learning how to hone. But from two points of view: both "touching up" or rehoning a razor in active use, and also recovering ebay and junk shop bargains.

Now, presumably, from the restoration point of view, buying something like a 1k/4k/8k/12k grit progression of stones would be a more long-term cost-effective purchase. But in the short term, if rehoning a pretty-sharp razor is the aim, then perhaps a barber's hone would be better.

If starting to assemble the progression is the way forward, then it looks like the choice is either Norton/Naniwa/Shapton or Coticules. I think I would lean towards the former, and Naniwa seems to offer as good a solution as any without the need to soak the stones (am I right?) And being naturally messy, that sounds attractive compared to eg. Norton.

If my first hone should be a barber's hone, then where do I start? I've read that eBay is a reasonable source, but don't have any clue how to shop for hones there. If this is the recommended route, can someone help me out by identifying what questions to ask, or spot one currently for sale that would be a good bet? How much to bid?

I think I would lean towards a Naniwa progression. Ideally, Naniwa would make something similar to the Norton 4k/8k, as it sounds like this is a good starting point. I can't seem to find a better-priced source in the UK than edenwebshops.co.uk. (Is there one favoured by the forums?) They only seem to have a 2k/5k and a 3k/10k, neither of which seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Perhaps I should buy a 12k or similar to plug the touching-up need, and aim to fill in the progression later on?

(It should also be said that I don't want to arrive home one day with a parcel containing a lapping plate, 1k/4k/8k/12k, Cr-Ox paste and whatnot in one go -- my wife would kill me. Buying one at a time and sneaking them into a gradually-growing collection will be easier. :twisted:)

Help!
 
Well you can pick up a barbers hone on ebay, look for one with no chips on the honing side but they do not come up all the time. you could also think of a ch12k (quite slow) or thurigan as a touch up hone. all the above can be used as touch up hones or finishers after honing. the eden workshops site is about the cheapest I have seen for the low grit nawins up to about 8000 especially if you dont get the plastic base, but for the 10 and 12 I think steve might be cheaper scrap that the invisable edge mounted stones are only 10mm compared to 20mm from the other place so a couple of quid is no big deal for twice the size
ps (eden workshops is not uk based but eu based but they ship tnt next day delivery I orderd on sunday night recieved on wedensday so still good)
 
i await the answers with interest as well

i'm going to do the same thing and have just ordered a DMT D8C to use to lap my future hones
i suppose someone will now tell me this was wrong :roll: but i can't be arsed with all the wet 'n dry malarky

i was thinking of using a Global Ceramic 1K for my starting hone if i need to go that low
i already have it so that saves on one purchase
i also have the Welsh Dragons Tongue which Neil says is about 8-9K ish

i need to fill in the gaps so i was thinking of a combo betwee the Global and the WDT with a 12K at the other end
 
This is an interesting question, and the definitive answer will come from Neil in due course, no doubt. What I'm about to suggest bears very little relation to my set up since I already had a lot of stones before getting interested in razors, and I've just added a finisher (a Müller thuringian from Neil).

What I'd do, starting from scratch but with the benefit of hindsight is buy Naniwa supers in 2k and 8k, with a King 6k in between. The 8k will likely do for finishing at a pinch, but something finer would be desirable, whilst the 2k is too fine for honing out damage, so I'd bracket those with a 600 DMT plate and a finisher of your choice. The DMT will do nicely for stone lapping, whilst finishing stones are so contentious that there isn't much point in recommending anything specific. If you want the very best edge that may well mean a lot of money for a Charnley, Escher or a Japanese natural, but there are plenty of cheaper alternatives to consider, most of which have already been mentioned but I'd add translucent or black Arkansas to the list.
 
This is also a subject which, once I learn how to shave with an open razor, I shall be pursuing.

If you go to Neil's site, and look at any of the razors for sale, at the bottom of the page he lists the honing progression of that razor. This gives an insight on how a pro does it, you just need to take a step down from that.

I suspect that a decent progression would take a fair amount of investment in time as well as money. Lapping is the bit that scares me.

Neil has some words here http://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=354

Ian
 
Well - looks like you have already got your objectives well sorted out:

1. Barber Hone Finishing Hone
2. Lapping
3. Other Hones

1. Barber hones are almost exclusively vintage, and subject to supply and demand. There is not a huge amount of information about them available. All are quite small - palm sized. They are fast in action, requiring only about half a dozen laps and fall into two grit ranges: 8k - 10k or more rarely 10k - 12k. There were hundreds of makes, but good ones include Dubl Duck, C-Mon (especially the two-sided one) and Franz Swaty (the Swatys with more than one line of text are recommended, three-liners being very well regarded). Being vintage and usually 'used' they might not be in good condition. Chose one that has been well looked after, has a shiny surface, no chips and which does not need lapping as they are notoriously hard and take a toll on a diamond lapping plate (as do all very hard stones like arkansas, charnley forest and other novaculites). In fact, lapping sometimes has an adverse effect - I once had a nice black Raven (barber hone that is - Bill Oddy wouldn't allow lapping a real raven) that after lapping became soft. Others can become very open and porous.

A new-ish offering is the Spyderco UF - originally formulated by its creator as a new barber hone. It is exceptionally flat (usually on just one side though) will never need lapping and is around 15k. Typical retail price is around £55 - about twice what you will pay for a vintage barber hone (if customs and excise don't wallop you with duty, that is!). It also has other specialist applications we won't go into here.

The other way to go is to get a good final finishing hone and use it as a barber hone - you will need more laps, but it will do a better job than most barber hones. And they are much bigger and easier to use. A Shapton GS (glass-stone) 16k or a Naniwa SS (super-stone) of 10k or 12k will do, but there are others. Naniwas are probably a bit cheaper. All the Shapton GS series hones are harder than the Naniwa SS hones, making the Naniwas easier to lap, especially at lower grits.

2. Lapping - there are a number of methods - wet'n'dry paper (see stickies) is cheap, cheerful and effective but messy and takes up a bit of space, as does using lapidary grit (which is even messier). The cleanest, most space-saving option is a diamond plate. These are metal plates with diamonds bonded to one or two sides. The one usually recommended for lapping is a coarse one, or 325 grit (I think the DMT D8C is the one). They need to be prepped though, as some particles stick up and scratch a lot. Knock them back by lapping the plate a number of strokes with a hard metal bar like a screwdriver shaft. Or attempt to lap a novaculite (but give up before you wear all the diamonds away!). You need to avoid slurry building up on these, so use lots of water, lapping your hones under a running tap, underwater or something similar. They also stick to the hone - 'stiction' - which is tedious but water helps. Letting the slurry build up will let it scour away at the bonding and you risk losing patches of diamonds.

There are a number of plates available. Stick with the diamond-bonded metal ones, not the ceramic ones. If you like a lot of mess and cleaning up get a metal one that needs lapping grit. There are a few different types. DMT do a perforated type - it is a perforated metal sheet with diamonds set on a plastic base, so it isn't the best thing for perfect flatness. It is very quick though and doesn't stick much. However, the downside is that it will leave marks corresponding to the perforations. I use one - a 150/325 grit double sided one for quick truing-up of hones before finishing off with a continuous plate.

Shapton does a glass-backed grooved metal diamond plate. On the positive side it is long, exceptionally flat and looks nice and does not stick at all because of the grooves. On the downside it is horrendously expensive, not that fast and because of the large grooves you get much less diamond surface than a continuous plate, which probably accounts for the lack of speed. Also, you are paying more for what is quite obviously less. Doh! In all seriousness they are nice to have but I wouldn't recommend them because of the price - even at half the price they would still be expensive (I paid over £250 inc shipping for mine quite a while back - you can get them cheaper from the US but there is still customs to contend with). The perforated DMT makes short work of flattening and the Shapton plate cleans up the marks of the DMT in my particular application. The shapton plate is (to me) horribly slow on its own, especially on gs hones below 16k. And - like all diamond plates - it gets slower as you use it more and the diamonds become abraded. Personally, I'd recommend the DMT 325 grit (less than £100). The big plus for this particular one is that it will double-up and readily remove a lot of metal at a prodigious rate - great for taking out chips, etc. in the edge of the razor.

So, with this you have taken care of both extremes: fine or barber hone and edge repair plus lapping.

3. Other Hones. Like Ian and Andy have said, these just follow a logical progression. As a rough rule, either keep to all man-made or all natural (I should follow my own advice!). Roughly, you want to double the grit size with each hone. You will need a 1k stone as a bevel-setter, so you could follow on with 2k, 4k, 8k, 10 or 16k. Leaving bigger gaps doesn't matter too much - you will just have to work longer on some hones to compensate. You could use combination hones like the King 1000/6000 (need soaking) or the Norton 4000/8000 (also needs soaking). Both the Naniwa SS and the Shapton GS can be used without soaking - just some water on the surface of the hone will do. Some can be used with a slurry (the 'waterstone' type like the King, usually) that speeds up cutting.

Personally I would go for the Naniwa SS or Shapton GS hones. Both have the same drawback though - they distort. You can lap them after a session and they will need lapping again before the next session - they swell and shrink in various places on the same hone even if just left as-is. Why? I don't know for sure. Something to do with the polymers in them absorbing water from the atmosphere at different rates, the relative humidity, how wet they get and how they dry or the proximity of the mother-in-law. But regardless of what other people have told me, every one of these hones I have had did it. I have had all the hones in both series, sometimes more than one example of each hone. They all did. The ones I have still do it. That's a crying shame for me - I have to lap the whole lot before every honing session and if I hone five or six razors at a time I need to lap during the session too. That takes a lot of time and with something so expensive (especially the Shaptons) I think it is outrageous. Good old natural stones don't puff themselves out or pull themselves in at a whim!

You could knock out a few of those stones and go with a coticule - used with a thick slurry these cut fast (though not as fast as a proper bevel-setter) and leave a good edge (but nowhere near as good as a fine japanese natural, a shapton 30k or a fine escher thuringian). The problem is, they cost a lot and you cannot be certain of getting what you want. Some cut fast and leave a very soft edge. Others cut slowly and leave a sharper edge. Some enthusiasts claim an edge equivalent to a 16k stone, but I have yet to see it and I have had dozens of coticules, both vintage and recently mined.

I think that you should get the basics out of the way first, using hones of a known grit rather than experimenting with natural stones and getting duplications or stones that need a lot of specialist know-how to use efficiently. Natural stones are unique, no two are alike and some command a premium price because they are rare and exotic. Exotic can come later. That's why I didn't buy a Roller when took up learning to drive (I wish!).

One thing to bear in mind is that the above represents just my own findings and views. It is all based on what I have used and my test subject - me. Just personal opinions in other words, and because of that fact pointless for anyone else. You have to find your own way - adhering to some broad outlines might save you a bit of time, money and grief on the way, that's all.

Regards,
Neil.
 
Thanks very much Neil. I have read your posts on the subject of hones both here and at SRP, so I imagine some of your own opinions must have rubbed off.

Because of the consistency, I think I will go for new man-made hones, probably from Naniwa because of the lack of a need to soak them.

The idea of honing my good razors scares me, so I think I will be sending them to you for a while (when they need doing that is!) and perhaps start trying to hone a "disposable" straight up from scratch. I hope a DMT D8C and the Naniwa 1k/3or5k/8k/12k combination will be a good start for that, perhaps swapping the 1k out for a King to save a few quid.

I don't think I'm ready for the inconsistency and extra variable of slurry that I would get with a natural stone, so will leave those for now. Even though Steve's site makes the BBW sound very attractive.

Thanks again everyone for your help.
 
i was going to put this in a PM to Neil but thought others might like to read his answer

for a novice\begginer to honing with a nearly shave ready razor, something along the lines of a factory Dovo for example
or indeed someone who wants to keep a blade in every day shaving condition what hones would you recommend?

would you work back from a finishing hone down the grit scale?

>10K
@5K
@2K

would that be enough?
 
Hi Hando,

It all depends by what you mean by "nearly shave ready." If it has just dulled through use and the bevel is still intact, then it might just need touching up on your final finishing hone - lets say it is a 10k hone.

If that is not enough to bring it back into service, you would have to drop down to the next lowest grit - in your example the 5k, then back to the 10k again, then test shave again.

If it is still not quite there, then - depending on the 5k hone you have - more laps then before on the 5k, then onto 10k, then test shave. If it is a rather slow 5k then drop to the 2k (which is very nearly in the bevel-setting range), then the 5k, then the 10k, then test shave.

Personally, I don't bother with kid-gloves for factory finished razors. More often than not, in order to preserve the spine the back of the razor is 'lifted' to a greater or lesser degree, so the angle it has been set at is a bit questionable anyway. Usually you can tell if this is the case by the complete absence of any hone wear along the spine. I just tape the spine and reset the bevel, then fully hone it. That usually lowers the back of the blade so that the bevel angle becomes less acute. It also widens the bevel somewhat and - if you are unlucky - flaws such as poor grinding and slight warps then make themselves more evident. This happens so often with lower quality razors (Cyril Salter and the like) that it is no joke!

Once the razor is shave-ready, then you should get by with periodic touch-ups using just your final finisher - or even just chrome oxide will do for quite an extended period.

Regards,
Neil
 
As it happens I have a pair of unused Dovos sitting in front of me. They both have hone wear on the spines, actually quite a bit of it, and rather uneven at that. By the way, has anyone else seen the Dovo manufacturing video which shows an elderly lady honing razors at incredible speed, then chopping hairs with them? Dead impressive it is, but I don't believe for a moment that this is the norm any more.
 
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