Vintage Coticules Better then the New ones??

Henk Bos wasn't the owner of the mine but his text on natural stones is essential reading for anyone interested in the subject. The mine owner is Maurice Celis, a great guy but not necessarily an expert in honing razors.

These videos may change a few opinions about the use of coticules as finishers.... No slurry in sight!

 
In brief the point about slurry on coticules is the phenomenon known as slurry dulling. Basically at the same time as speeding up the cutting process the slurry actually has a dulling effect on the edge which is why you need to gradually dilute the slurry to further refine the edge. This takes practise and a good understanding of your particular stone.
 
I've always used water with coticles. Never really looked at threads on honing, as there are experts to answer those questions.

My father thought me how to hone, and he learned from his father, a barber. Neither ever used a slurry. I always assumed the slurry stone was used to prep the surface of the stone to both clean it and to correct any dishing or other flaws before they became problematic.

@mikew Great video, if a bit long winded. :)
 
smithismund said:
I've not long had my coticule, but I use it as an intermediate between my Shapton pink and a modern Thuringian. I wouldn't use it as a finisher at my current skill level. Bottom line is this combination gets me nice edges - whatever works for you really...
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Now what on earth is a modern Thuringian? Natural stones that can be used for honing are all millions of years old - there is no such thing as a modern Thuringian- unless, of course you believe there is nothing older than 2000 years.
 
UKRob said:
Now what on earth is a modern Thuringian? Natural stones that can be used for honing are all millions of years old - there is no such thing as a modern Thuringian- unless, of course you believe there is nothing older than 2000 years.
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Accepted its quite old (like me). It's one the newly cut MST stones as opposed to one of the lovely vintage Escher's that I can never seem to afford. Seems to work OK though until I can justify something a bit nicer.
 
Slurry is quite easy to understand - creating the slurry means that you have a doubling up effect in terms of cutting because you have a solution on both sides of the blade. By gradually using the diminishing particle size both by abrasion and dilution you get a finer edge.

I use abrasive compounds on a polising mop - If I start with 150 grit it leaves noticeable marks on a razor. When the grit starts to reduce, so do thge score marks. I can then go to, say 300 grit and the score marks are worse, until the 300 grit starts to reduce. That's about the best illustration I can give.
 
smithismund said:
Accepted its quite old (like me). It's one the newly cut MST stones as opposed to one of the lovely vintage Escher's that I can never seem to afford. Seems to work OK though until I can justify something a bit nicer.
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The point I'm trying to make is that what you call vintage Thuringian was probably mined in the last 150 years or so - therefore in terms of age it's no more than a nanosecond older than a modern stone. It's the vein that matters.
 
UKRob said:
The point I'm trying to make is that what you call vintage Thuringian was probably mined in the last 150 years or so - therefore in terms of age it's no more than a nanosecond older than a modern stone. It's the vein that matters.
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Point taken. I've been browsing SRP/B&B too much and fallen into their terminology. Bottom line is I have a lump of German slate that puts a perfectly decent edge on my blades (given my limited skills) which didn't cost me too much. I'm happy for now, but as always looking for that magical rock that will give me the perfect edge...
 
I know exactly what you mean. I have a South African natural stone and a Japanese natural with various slurry stones and a Welsh slate and a small Thuringian and a couple of coticules - any of which would probably be good enough to shave off - once I've set the bevel on my Naniwas and polished up to 10k.

I aslo have Shapton 16k and the legendary Gokumyu 20k. Take my advice - Naniwas are the best stone to learn on. They are also the best stone to continue to use once you thing you are adept at honing. When you think you are getting to the advanced stage - use Naniwas.
 
The argument over whether deep mine coticules (exhausted from the current mine) are better than surface mine ones (current mining) has been going on for ages. I have some of both and frankly can't tell the difference. Maybe the deep mines ones have a more homogenous yellow look (i.e. more 'select' than 'standard' quality - but then again I can't tell the difference in terms of honing performance)?

Good news is that Ardennes is about to invest some millions into opening up a new deep mine which should be in operation in a year or two. The owner says there is plenty of coticule under ground, the only issue is the cost of extraction. So watch this space!

Re: finishing with water only. Recently I have been finishing not only 'water only' but 'water only under a running tap'. No pressure at all. I guess the running water removes any slurry that might auto-generate. And it feels like at least 15k. Seems like nothing is happening but keep going. A lovely comfortable and sharp edge emerges. Give it a try?
 
I get a lovely comfortable shave finishing on either a 8k naniwa or a 12k naniwa or BBW or a Coticule with only water or with a fine slurry. Stropped on kangaroo, cow hide, Latigo or Cordovan. Hell I even got a nice shave off my jeans and the palm of my hand.
 
Great info in this thread! I usually finish on a '15k' natural stone, but was always curious as to the difference a 20k stone would make. Then I read my stropping (cotton/suede/cordovan) is the equivalent of an even higher grit!? So decided not to purchase it.

I always wince at honing stones posts, as I remember throwing a couple away when volunteering at Oxfam. I was only young but have never seen any hones like them. They sat in their own mahogany box, quite large probably a metre by half a metre, had the same colour as an angry rain cloud with a hint of blue and were shiny. Wonder what they were. I threw them in a skip, I'll never forgive myself.
 
Hey Rob, that's a pretty bold statement to make about naniwas :)

In the last month or so I've been really trying to up my game with regards honing and have spent more money than I care to think about in the quest for 'the perfect edge'. The conclusion I have slowly come to is there are many different hones all perfectly capable of delivering a great shave and the 'best' one is simply the one you enjoy using the most. For me that is Japanese natural stones in the medium/hard range followed closely by coticules. As they say, your mileage may vary :)
 
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Nishy said:
...I always wince at honing stones posts, as I remember throwing a couple away when volunteering at Oxfam. I was only young but have never seen any hones like them. They sat in their own mahogany box, quite large probably a metre by half a metre, had the same colour as an angry rain cloud with a hint of blue and were shiny. Wonder what they were. I threw them in a skip, I'll never forgive myself.
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I remember reading somewhere that Thiers Issard uses a large stone like that for the final sharpening of their razors.
 
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