The European Union: in or out?

EU: in, out or undecided

  • Total voters
    64
Al H said:
I believe the jocks have the right for their independence referendum as much as I think it will be the no vote

I believe all parties should give the British poeople the same opportunity
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Absolutely. If the referendum happens and we leave the EU, I'd want to find out that I'm wrong. Whatever the consequences, if it happens, we'll just have to make the best of it.
 
This is always going to be a divisive topic but the fundamental which I doubt many would disagree with is that the public should be able to decide if they want to remain part of this project and not career politicians.
 
The problem with going to the public for their decision is that we are, usually, as ill-informed and partisan as our politicians.
As ever, Democracy is only really functional when coupled with accurate information and good education.
Most people's view of the EU is too affected by the reporting of the British media, which is largely Eurosceptic and 100% unafraid of making things up (or lying as it is sometimes known).
For examples of this see:

EC in the UK

I'm not a big fan of Democracy per se as I think we, as a species are too easily manipulated c.f. confirmation bias.

TRXnMe said:
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Despite that ^^ my chief objection is the existance of the unelected mandarins at the top.

I've cited HSE legislation as it's an area I'm familiar with, I've heard of other regulations in the pipeline, but am less aware of the likelihood of them being implemented.
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Good points well made, I know nothing of HSE regulations on Asbestos etc. but bow to your experience. The thing is most of the complaints people make aren't about the real stuff but about the guff in the press.

As to the Mandarins I'm far more concerned by the ones at the top of the UK pile than the EU ones. They have a far far greater effect on me and my own are similarly unelected and out of our control.
Who was that advisor of Cameron's that was just arrested for being a dodgy sex pest? did we elect him? or the B of E monetary board?
 
One of the main reasons for staying in the EU seems to be concerns over trading if we leave. Bear in mind that the UK is a net importer of goods - is Europe likely to set up barriers to goods from the UK when, for example, French wine and German cars are the trade off?

Personally, apart from the raft of legislation that is swamping the country, I'd love to be rid of the requirement to finance a hopelessly outdated agricultural system in France and a budgeting system that has never passed audits because no-one can account for the billions that is syphoned off or goes missing.
 
RB73 said:

Welsh lamb farmers have had to constantly turn their cheeks and hold their tongues with regards to EU mandates and regulations with the threat of tighter controls and cost leveling to guarantee competition, until it became apparent a couple of years ago that in fact Wales is the biggest exporter of lamb outside of the EU in the world per cap.

In spite of EU underhand tactics to restrain it.
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I take it this is just a Wiki made up bit then?

" The threat of the United Kingdom withdrawing from the European Union is also a fear for the farmers of Welsh as they anticipate "doom the Welsh sheep industry". The EU support to the Welsh rural community is reported to be of the order of about half a billion euros a year. The loss on this account could be an additional burden of £40 per lamb on the farmers."

UKRob said:
...and a budgeting system that has never passed audits because no-one can account for the billions that is syphoned off or goes missing.
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See "UK media – for example the Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Times – yet again reported that the European Court of Auditors (ECA) has not signed off the EU accounts. Some media -this time including the Daily Telegraph – claim that UK taxpayers will be liable to pay back GBP 800 million. Both statements are simply false.

The Court did in fact sign off as accurate the EU's accounts for 2012 – as it has done each year since 2007. It stated this clearly in its press release http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/AR_2012.aspx.

The ECA (not the European Commission) was so concerned by the flagrant inaccuracy of so many reports that it tweeted Mail online and other media in UK and beyond to request changes @EUAuditorsECA"
 
Count of Undolpho said:
RB73 said:

Welsh lamb farmers have had to constantly turn their cheeks and hold their tongues with regards to EU mandates and regulations with the threat of tighter controls and cost leveling to guarantee competition, until it became apparent a couple of years ago that in fact Wales is the biggest exporter of lamb outside of the EU in the world per cap.

In spite of EU underhand tactics to restrain it.
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I take it this is just a Wiki made up bit then?

" The threat of the United Kingdom withdrawing from the European Union is also a fear for the farmers of Welsh as they anticipate "doom the Welsh sheep industry". The EU support to the Welsh rural community is reported to be of the order of about half a billion euros a year. The loss on this account could be an additional burden of £40 per lamb on the farmers."

UKRob said:
...and a budgeting system that has never passed audits because no-one can account for the billions that is syphoned off or goes missing.
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See "UK media – for example the Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Times – yet again reported that the European Court of Auditors (ECA) has not signed off the EU accounts. Some media -this time including the Daily Telegraph – claim that UK taxpayers will be liable to pay back GBP 800 million. Both statements are simply false.

The Court did in fact sign off as accurate the EU's accounts for 2012 – as it has done each year since 2007. It stated this clearly in its press release http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/AR_2012.aspx.

The ECA (not the European Commission) was so concerned by the flagrant inaccuracy of so many reports that it tweeted Mail online and other media in UK and beyond to request changes @EUAuditorsECA"
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Actually, no, but i must visit this wiki as it looks fascinating.
 
Perhaps many of us who voted back in the 970s to join the then "Common Market" in the delusion that is was to be a "Commonwealth of Europe" still have a deep seated mistrust of the political classes who lied to us then and, I doubt not, lie to us still about their plans and intentions. As the SNPs Ms Sturgeon recently reminded us publicly, we live in a political democracy, so we must needs accept that those who are elected will always feel free to say when they make a popular decision that they are representing those who put them in authority. And of course, conversely, that when they make an unpopular decision they are elected to give a lead and not to bow to populist pressure.
In other words, since all main political parties in the last general election promised a referendum and none have any intention of delivering it we may as well accept that no mainstream PM in the forseeable future will offer a referendum unless they are sure it delivers the result (staying in ) which they desire.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:
 
It's not the politicians who 'lie' exactly.

They are just idealistic idiots and they write their manifestos on what they think will win them power.

Once they are in power they see it's really the senior Civil Servants and major business leaders who run the country and the politicians (being jelly-headed fuckwits) believe what they are told is in "the best interests of the country".

It's the politicians' job to then convince us. The problem is, most of us aren't as gullible as they are.
 
jb74 said:
RB73 said:
us (UK)to bailing out Eire to the tune of 7 +Billion
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It's a loan... we're paying it back with interest ;-)
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Ah, the proud and noble Fenian republic, free from the overweaning interventions of Britain!

An independent Ireland indeed! ;-)
 
I'd need to see an unbiased list of pro's and con's to have a proper view on it.

Unfortunately such a thing doesn't exist and therefore I'm fairly ignorant about it.
 
Jeltz said:
The current situation is a world apart from the common market which was voted for nearly 40 years ago. The rise of UKIP is because none of the mainstream parties have offered any alternative so the public have been unable to cast a vote to reflect their feeling on the devolving of power which has happened.
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I think the most attractive thing for me about UKIP is the fact that they appear to scare the mainstream parties. That can only be a good thing.
 
chrisbell said:
I would, however, ask a partly rhetorical question - if we are saying that there's no such thing as a bad decision in a democracy (which comprises millions of individuals), then, by extension, we must also say that one of those individuals ought not be dissuaded from making a decision, as any such dissuasion must be selfish not altruistic as there's no such thing as a dangerously wrong decision!:icon_rolleyes: Would you agree with that, or do you consider that if you saw someone wandering distractedly towards a cliff edge you might shout a warning?
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You are over thinking things Chris by trying to link the terms right and wrong with democracy, they are subjective terms while democracy is a political process. Democracy simply reflects the will of the people; that will may be regarded by others both within and outside of that society as wrong (or right) but it is still the will of the people.

Midas said:
I think the most attractive thing for me about UKIP is the fact that they appear to scare the mainstream parties. That can only be a good thing.
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Yes it is the dilution of the votes which concerns the parties, Ed Milliband and his team have played a very bad hand by saying something which made it sound like they might have a referendum but then had to admit they probably won't.
 
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