Honing questions

[Mikael]

carefully inspect the hone wear on the spine and the bevel for irregularities - the most common thing to throw away the last bit of sharpness is the straightness (ie lack of it) of the spine.

...The nightmare begins........

Regards,
Neil

Brilliant Neil thanks very much for all that. Immediately suspect the above as even with the naked eye I can see one area of the bevel that has 'honed more' (does that make sense) that the rest of the edge.

Crikey this is a steep learning curve this honing business... Will have another go over the weekend and try and get hold of a loupe meantime any other suggestions for a decent cheapish one (thanks for yours @asharperrazor)

Cheers
Matt

It can also mean that you had a to much pressure during honing, if at the middle of the blade/edge I would suspect that (or at the toe, aka heavy toe wear)...

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carefully inspect the hone wear on the spine and the bevel for irregularities - the most common thing to throw away the last bit of sharpness is the straightness (ie lack of it) of the spine.

...The nightmare begins........

Regards,
Neil

Brilliant Neil thanks very much for all that. Immediately suspect the above as even with the naked eye I can see one area of the bevel that has 'honed more' (does that make sense) that the rest of the edge.

Crikey this is a steep learning curve this honing business... Will have another go over the weekend and try and get hold of a loupe meantime any other suggestions for a decent cheapish one (thanks for yours @asharperrazor)

Cheers
Matt

It can also mean that you had a to much pressure during honing, if at the middle of the blade/edge I would suspect that (or at the toe, aka heavy toe wear)...

 

[UKRob]

I have found out that it is not uncommon for razors, especially old ones or cheap (starter model) new ones, to have warps in the spine. Sometimes you have to remove the high points by using 'half-laps' - ie sliding the razor up and down for 20 - 40 laps on the same side then turning it over and repeating the process) on a 1k hone then tape it, then start again from scratch.

Sometimes even one layer of tape is not sufficient. You have to do the half laps again to get some wear on the tape at the high points, then add another layer - the layer underneath acting as a buffer - it must stay there all through the process, only the top layer being renewed. You have really got to love the razor to have to go to bevel setting twice.

Great advice about using double tape and repacing only the top layer. I assume that the initial removal of high spots on the spine could also result in undue bevel wear in places - ie the side that has a high spot in, say the middle, will cause a wider bevel in the middle because the edge is hitting the hone more than at the sides. If this is the case, is there any way it can be avoided?

 

[Neil Miller]

What he said.

BelOmo is the best bang for your buck loupe. Otherwise you should stick with known quantities such as Bausch & Lomb (sp) or Nikon or another optics company.

The 30x loupes on amazon/ebay are worth less than you paid for them. But may get the job done. I think it's an actual 10x, could be wrong. Don't care to buy one.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I do have a good jewellers X10 loupe, but i wanted a x30 or X50 and went for one of the little microscopes you find on ebay.... they are cheap but not worth the money, they are nowhere the Magnification promised and they are very small and difficult to use;

Yes , you can use them for the job, but better investing the 5GBP/8$ on a VERY good one that will last a lifetime than buying a cheap crap one that you curse every time you use it.

This applies for any tool needed in the laboratory, the very good ones are expensive but last forever (some brands have lifetime warranties!!) and its a pleasure to use them.

Going back to the honing Tips... THANKS for all the advice!

+1 on the Belomo - that's what I have. More powerful models have to be held closer to the subject and tend to have smaller diameter lenses, both of which makes the view much darker.

They are quite reasonably priced, too.

Like most things in life, you get what you pay for - pay cheap money and you usually end up with cheap rubbish.

Regards,
Neil

 

[Neil Miller]

I have found out that it is not uncommon for razors, especially old ones or cheap (starter model) new ones, to have warps in the spine. Sometimes you have to remove the high points by using 'half-laps' - ie sliding the razor up and down for 20 - 40 laps on the same side then turning it over and repeating the process) on a 1k hone then tape it, then start again from scratch.

Sometimes even one layer of tape is not sufficient. You have to do the half laps again to get some wear on the tape at the high points, then add another layer - the layer underneath acting as a buffer - it must stay there all through the process, only the top layer being renewed. You have really got to love the razor to have to go to bevel setting twice.

Great advice about using double tape and repacing only the top layer. I assume that the initial removal of high spots on the spine could also result in undue bevel wear in places - ie the side that has a high spot in, say the middle, will cause a wider bevel in the middle because the edge is hitting the hone more than at the sides. If this is the case, is there any way it can be avoided?

I have tried removing most of the high spots (ie two on one side at either end and one in the middle on the other side) by using a belt grinder on just the spine, but you have to be quite precise and its best to stop before the job is finished and work the rest out on the hone to even out and blend in the marks left by the belt grinder. That in itself means that where the high points are there will still be larger areas of bevel.

The main warping is of course in the spine, but it does carry on down into the blade to some extent, so you are always going to have uneven bevels on razors with moderate to severe warps.

In this case, the only way to minimise the effect is to elevate the spine so less of the sides of the blade contact the hone. I have used 3 layers quite a number of times and occasionally have had to use four, but anything past two isn't really recommended - it gets harder to be precise due to the increasing sponge-like/cushioning effect. A real steady hand and free-handing it would do it - if you have the skill.

RE: free-handing, you see that in some of the early Dovo factory footage on youTube. They make it easier for themselves though by using a large horizontal whetstone wheel that is powed - they just lay the razor at the required angle on one side and then the other. The main reason, I suppose, is that no spine wear is apparent and the razors looked better for it.

With microtome razors (one wedge/flat side and one hollow ground side, used for sectioning lab samples, but looking exactly like an open razor in every other respect) they use a collar on the spine, and I suspect something like that was used for true wedge razors as well. No doubt you could knock-up something similar by slittting a length of stainless steel tube or fashioning some sort of clip. I keep meaning to do just that, but never have the time to get round to it.

Regards,
Neil

 

[Mikael]

Man, you've got crazy skills Neil! When I think I've got an angel, you've 5 more and most often all more valid than I can think off. I'm going to copy and save your text if it's okay (so I can re read it at times). Cheers for taking the time!

 

[asharperrazor]

Re: Loupes,
All you need is a 10x. Anything more is just for shits & giggles to be perfectly honest. I prefer a 12x, but only because I like seeing it blown up just a little bit more. In reality, the 10x does perfectly fine. I never ever use the 20x anymore. I can't see anything I can't see in the 12x.

Uneven bevel can also be caused by uneven grinding. Fromm razors are very poorly ground. High & low spots all over the place. Normally not warped. Don't buy them btw.

High spot in the middle on only one side of the blade, and then high spots on the toe & heel on the other side indicates a warped spine with a C curve in it. If it's not terribly bad, a layer of tape or two should allow for a good honing guide.

The side with the single high spot can be honed with a rolling stroke, the other side is a problem. The easiest way is to just use a narrow hone to touch all the bevel. If it's not that bad, you can do a 45 degree stroke, but it doesn't always work.

If that still doesn't work, you can try adding even more tape, but unless you're very good with even pressure, Neil has delineated the problems. Lifting the spine works too, but you need to be very consistent with angles.

And if all else fails, you can try to bend it back to shape, but the results could be catastrophic. Not really recommended, I don't even do this myself, but have heard of it working for other people such as Bill Ellis.

 

[jaycey]

Talking of warps and spines.

I found out recently that one of my Filarmonica's, a SubCero 12 has a bulge on the spine only on one side.
I couldn't work out why I was getting an uneven bevel on one side and initially put it down to my honing.
Along with the spine bulge I found the edge had crumbled near the toe, with a little extra honing finesse and extra layer of tape on the spine I got it shaving like a Filly should. It was rather frustrating for a while though.

I believe I have the worlds only dodgy Filarmonica:-/

 

[UKRob]

This has turned into a very informative post - thanks to the pros for sharing their tips.

Rob

 

[Mattius]

This has turned into a very informative post - thanks to the pros for sharing their tips.
Rob

Agree entirely. I am probably being a bit thick here chaps but struggling to visualise exactly the relationship between the spine and the edge.

My bevel looks like this (please excuse appalling paint drawing) exaggerated for effect. On the other side of the razor the bevel is thinner and acceptably even along the length from my point of view.

Further to Neil's advice in the picture which bit on the spine is the high spot - where you need to potentially remove some material - the red or the black arrows? (I'm thinking it's the red is that correct?)
[attachment=6427]

 

[Neil Miller]

This has turned into a very informative post - thanks to the pros for sharing their tips.
Rob

Agree entirely. I am probably being a bit thick here chaps but struggling to visualise exactly the relationship between the spine and the edge.

My bevel looks like this (please excuse appalling paint drawing) exaggerated for effect. On the other side of the razor the bevel is thinner and acceptably even along the length from my point of view.

Further to Neil's advice in the picture which bit on the spine is the high spot - where you need to potentially remove some material - the red or the black arrows? (I'm thinking it's the red is that correct?)

Yep - the red. If the spine is warped (curved) the red arrow would be closest to you and the black arrows further away. The other face of the blade would have red arrows at each edge, black in the middle, a thin bit of wear in the middle (sometimes none if the curve is severe and that place doesn't even touch the hone) and thicker areas at either end.

If the spine isn't warped, then its an inconsistency in the grind - it wasn't grouns as far in that area leaving a high point, in which case it is mainly a cosmetic issue.

Regards,
Neil

---

Talking of warps and spines.

I found out recently that one of my Filarmonica's, a SubCero 12 has a bulge on the spine only on one side.
I couldn't work out why I was getting an uneven bevel on one side and initially put it down to my honing.
Along with the spine bulge I found the edge had crumbled near the toe, with a little extra honing finesse and extra layer of tape on the spine I got it shaving like a Filly should. It was rather frustrating for a while though.

I believe I have the worlds only dodgy Filarmonica:-/

I have had a few like that too, Jaycey - a huge bulge where the spine went into the tang area, making the blade 'rock' on that side and keeping the heel on that side right off the hone.

The grinding/shaping on some Filarmonicas leaves a lot to be desired - some look like they were finished with an old steel file - but the edges are usually very good.

Regards,
Neil

 

[culcreuch]

Any eBay reputable dealers. for the Beloma. There is a large variation in price

 

[asharperrazor]

This has turned into a very informative post - thanks to the pros for sharing their tips.
Rob

Agree entirely. I am probably being a bit thick here chaps but struggling to visualise exactly the relationship between the spine and the edge.

My bevel looks like this (please excuse appalling paint drawing) exaggerated for effect. On the other side of the razor the bevel is thinner and acceptably even along the length from my point of view.

Further to Neil's advice in the picture which bit on the spine is the high spot - where you need to potentially remove some material - the red or the black arrows? (I'm thinking it's the red is that correct?)

When a razor comes to me like that and both sides have that pattern, that means someone honed a smiling razor like a straight razor. No I couldn't figure out what else to call it.

What happens then, is that the person keeps on removing steel until the center is ground away, but the toe & heel are left intact because if you hone a smiling blade like that, that's the end result. The other result is that the blade is a lot straighter, but the spine will still be curved at the top.

Not much to do other than sharpen it the right way and realize that the razor's seen better days.

Other than that, Neil's post highlights the other possible cause.

 

[culcreuch]

Actually......could this be made a sticky. The info is too valuable to lose!

 

[Mattius]

When a razor comes to me like that and both sides have that pattern...

This was only really on one side so I'm pretty sure it was a bit of warp and not actually that bad once I got going on it.

So removed some material at the red arrow as best I could on the 1k - managed to get the edge to touch evenly all along the hone - and then started again. Followed Neils advice and ended up setting a 2 layer taped bevel and then progressed through but backed off a bit on the 10k hone that seemed to be making matters worse.

And then finally had a very satisfactory shave :icon_smile:

The blade isn't going to win any beauty prizes but very satisfying. Many many thanks for all the advice