Honing questions

asharperrazor said:
Gold Dollars are the worst razor to learn honing on. Unless you bought it sharpened. IMO.

Well .....I bought 2 from you.......but I also bought a substantial number of unsharpened #66 s and picked the best. Probably hit lucky. ....but I had a shave ready razor at the end. By the way.....both of yours were GD300 razors. One was honed and a nice shaver.....the other unhoned and I have not touched it yet....but I know what can be achieved.
 
culcreuch said:
I also bought a substantial number of unsharpened #66 s and picked the best.

That's certainly one way to beat the odds. :)

The 300 is actually pretty good from the factory. Better than Fromm. Those are pretty bad too.

So, let me amend my previous statement by adding: "with the exception of the 200/800/300 series from GD...."
 
I asked Lynn Abrams about his methods and and why he chose to miss out the 3K stone he came back with some very good advice that makes a lot of sense with very few words, I thought a few prospective honers may like to see what he had to say.

Jamie.


To me, it is really a matter of preference to use the Naniwa 5K and then the 8K with the circle process. I don't throw the 3K into the mix, but if I use the 3K, I will follow it with the 8K. Really not much difference from a results standpoint. Some like to use the 3K in lieu of the 5K on razors in poorer shape, but again to me, this is purely a personal preference thing.

I don't use films at all these days. I played around with them for a long time and they will work, but no where near as consistent for me as the Naniwa Super Stones or the Norton or the Shapton Glass Stones.

My advice would be that if you can, play around with all this stuff and substitute anything you can think of and then test your results. But, test them for a while and don't come to any conclusions based on a ton of fiddling with just a couple razors. The more you try new things, the more you will find what will provide repeatable results for you.

Have fun.
 
The naniwa ss 3k and 5k are very similar in some respects to the naniwa chosera 3k and 5k inasmuch as you can leave one or the other out of the progression. However, as Lyn says in the youTube comments, you can have them both - its perfectably acceptable and up to the individual. I have both sets of stones, and prefer to use the standard step-wise progression, but that's just me.

Incidentally, very small chips can be removed with the 3k naniwa and even the 5k naniwa can refresh a bevel that is almost but not quite there so you may even do without the 1k hone, but if you have a major job to do (large dings, nibbles, breadknifing (controversial!), etc) then you will almost certainly want a 1k.

One odd thing I heard Lyn say is that the stone is not as abrasive as some, which means that the spine isn't eaten into as much (paraphrased a bit, but that's the essence of it). For the life of me, I can't see that the latter assumption is true. The naniwas appear to be less abrasive than some stones and this shows by how shiny the hone wear on the spine and bevel are compared to some other stones of equal grit, which leave a cloudier or scratchier appearance. This is probably due to density of cutting particles more than anything else. Strange as it may seem, hones which give a less abraded appearance to metal have a higher density of cutting particles and hence more uniformity of scratch mark pattern.

The thing that does not scan is that the spine will be less worn - how can that be true? Goes against the laws of physics. Given that the spine is of the same hardness/temper as the bevel, then metal will be eaten at a constant rate, regardless of the stone. There is no such thing as a 'differential' honing action! The scratchier wear left by another hone might appear worse than the shiny wear left by the naniwa, but that is just an illusion. For the same amount of wear - say to bevel-set - on a naniwa and a different hone of equal grit, the wear will be the same - after all. the spine is subtending the angle held at the bevel. Blade geometry cannot lie.

Lyn appears to be honing a new or newish razor, which would have very little wear on the spine, so one would not expect a huge amount of spine wear, providing the spine is not kinked, anyway.

New/newish razors appear to have a more even temper than older razors, where it is common to find the spine and tang to be of a lower hardness than the blade and therefore softer, so in reality on older razors we find slightly more wear on the spine than in newer razors. When taking honing to very high grits this may well explain the plateau effect you get when the razor refuses to get any sharper. It is, however, something overcome quite easily by taping and refreshing the tape at frequent intervals.

The heel is problematic in older razors too. In new razors the stabiliser peters out before reaching the bevel, but as the razor is honed over time the stabiliser begins to get in the way and you are faced with either honing into it, or regrinding the area to keep it off the hone. In this instance tape helps again by elevating the angle). In very old (or poorly honed) razors you often get a little hollow near the heel (sometimes a hook or spur if the razor is very, very old) which shows that previous honers have canted the razor at an angle to avoid honing into the bevel. No problem with a new razor, but with an 1800s razor you don't want a hook gouging your cheek!

Regards,
Neil
 
Another excellent article Neil, and without doubt some really good facts, goes without saying for me if you are going to hone a razor you must use tape, and in some cases several layers of tape.

Jamie
 
pugh-the-special-one said:
Another excellent article Neil, and without doubt some really good facts, goes without saying for me if you are going to hone a razor you must use tape, and in some cases several layers of tape.
Jamie

I was wondering on the two scenarios:

- With the tape:
the spine is safe , however the edge gets worn AND shorter, every time the razor is honed , therefore the angle of the edge varies and , as a consequence, also the "type" of edge you obtain every time you hone it. The more the razore is honed and the shorter becomes the edge , basically the angle between the faces encreases and the edge ceases of being "consistant".

- without the tape: the spine wears down as well as the edge and theoretically the angle of the edge should remain constant, as well as the type/quality of the edge; in this situation , you should obtain a consistant edge honing after honing.

having said that, the issue with the hone grinding the spine, I think, applies only when you have to start from zero and rebuild an edge, once the edge is done then it should be only a matter of maintenance and the wear of the spine would be minimal.

After trying both methods, I think I prefer the versoion WITH the tape, it seems to me that the hone feel is more consistant probably because it clogs less (there is less metal wear and therefore less metal parts in the slurry); of course I am a very inexperienced, so maybe I am just talking nonsense :blush:
 
I see the point you are trying to make but the reality is that it would take a lot of honing to wear away the edge sufficiently to affect the overall geometry - or to put it another way, to significantly reduce the width of the blade through honing.

I think the issue of whether to tape or not is dependent on several factors, some of which are preferences. For my part, I generally add a single layer of tape to avoid hone wear on the spine. However, because I have a reasonable number of razors in rotation, they do not get a significant amount of honing so it's probably academic.
 
UKRob said:
the reality is that it would take a lot of honing to wear away the edge sufficiently to affect the overall geometry

Does it really? Maybe I am being misled by looking at lots of ebay horror photos where 50+ years of aggressive honing have sometimes halved the blade width by the looks of things?!
 
Mattius said:
UKRob said:
the reality is that it would take a lot of honing to wear away the edge sufficiently to affect the overall geometry

Does it really? Maybe I am being misled by looking at lots of ebay horror photos where 50+ years of aggressive honing have sometimes halved the blade width by the looks of things?!

They usually shaved with blades honed on the equivalent of 8,000 grit stones. I don't think you'd want to shave back then with their razors.

Also, many razors were owned by barbers rather than the lay person. Those razors suffer extreme honing wear. That is why "for barber's use" razors are so large. They need to accommodate centuries of wear in a few years. I may be exaggerating, but you get the point.

100+ years of honing on a 12k stone every 6 months is going to remove perhaps 1/8". Maybe 1/4".

Don't believe me, try and measure the difference between when you started and five years later. You can go ahead and speed up the process by doing the same number of laps on a 12k stone as you would during those five or ten, or twenty years. You'll find very little steel is actually removed.
 
Mattius said:
UKRob said:
the reality is that it would take a lot of honing to wear away the edge sufficiently to affect the overall geometry

Does it really? Maybe I am being misled by looking at lots of ebay horror photos where 50+ years of aggressive honing have sometimes halved the blade width by the looks of things?!

The vast majority of blades on Ebay has a reasonable amount of wear for their age. However, I notice that there are particular countries like Bulgaria where absolute crap is advertised at Buy Now prices that will never be achieved - I'm convinced that this is some form of scam as the same old razors are there time after time and it looks to me as if they have been deliberately sabotaged to be unsaleable, although I can't see the point.
 
More noobie honing questions then:

Got an e-bay Sheffield special 1/4 hollow 6/8th H Hobson & Sons - cleaned it up without unpinning the scales and it is in reasonable shape (let me know if pics would help)

Honing gear:
1k/3k Japanese waterstone
AJ ebay welsh slates grey and purple one so 8k / 10k ish?
Canvas/leather strop
One layer electrical tape on spine all the way through except stropping

Gave it a shave and it's really not bad - down the cheeks nice - but struggling again round the chin it just isn't quite sharp enough (this is a problem area even with shave ready comparison razor this one)
http://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/forum/thread-16712.html

But really like the extra heft of the razor and feel more confident with it. So where next? There are a couple of tiny tiny nibbles that would justify another session back at 1k I think - do i need to do the blunting thing on a glass jar first before going back?

Or is it a stone/hone issue - higher grit Jap waterstones more kit required? (sigh...)
 
The only other bit of kit that might be of help to you is a good (3 element) loupe of at least 10x magnification. You need to look at the edge each time before progressing to the next hone. An incredibly thin flat area, under an oblique light source, will light up like a thin ribbon of brightness - if you see this you aren't ready to go to the next higher hone.

When you come of the last hone look again. The edge should look smooth, no bright ribbon of metal along it. If it looks a bit jagged (micro-chipped) then the metal is either too hard (like many new TIs) or too soft to go to the last grit hone you used.

Metal too hard - use a soft hone and/or add another layer of tape to induce a microbevel, but only hone for 10 laps (or less) on the final hone.

Metal too soft - use a harder hone. If the trouble is still apparent, use a hone of lesser grit or use the extra layer of tape as above for a microbevel.

If it looks OK, strop it. Then look again to make sure the edge has not deteriorated (NB stropping will introduce a little brightness at the edge - nothing to worry about).

If none of those things work, then a different type of hone - maybe a coticule for Sheffield steel - may help. If nothing works, suspect the temper of the steel OR carefully inspect the hone wear on the spine and the bevel for irregularities - the most common thing to throw away the last bit of sharpness is the straightness (ie lack of it) of the spine. If it is the spine, than a narrower hone may help - but it will leave your previous bevel looking a bit weird unless you start from scratch again.

I have found out that it is not uncommon for razors, especially old ones or cheap (starter model) new ones, to have warps in the spine. Sometimes you have to remove the high points by using 'half-laps' - ie sliding the razor up and down for 20 - 40 laps on the same side then turning it over and repeating the process) on a 1k hone then tape it, then start again from scratch.

Sometimes even one layer of tape is not sufficient. You have to do the half laps again to get some wear on the tape at the high points, then add another layer - the layer underneath acting as a buffer - it must stay there all through the process, only the top layer being renewed. You have really got to love the razor to have to go to bevel setting twice.

One of my recent jobs had chips, a warped spine and swiss-cheese corrosion on the bevel. Lovely.

The nightmare begins........

Regards,
Neil
 
What he said.

BelOmo is the best bang for your buck loupe. Otherwise you should stick with known quantities such as Bausch & Lomb (sp) or Nikon or another optics company.

The 30x loupes on amazon/ebay are worth less than you paid for them. But may get the job done. I think it's an actual 10x, could be wrong. Don't care to buy one.
 
Neil Miller said:
carefully inspect the hone wear on the spine and the bevel for irregularities - the most common thing to throw away the last bit of sharpness is the straightness (ie lack of it) of the spine.

...The nightmare begins........

Regards,
Neil

Brilliant Neil thanks very much for all that. Immediately suspect the above as even with the naked eye I can see one area of the bevel that has 'honed more' (does that make sense) that the rest of the edge.

Crikey this is a steep learning curve this honing business... Will have another go over the weekend and try and get hold of a loupe meantime any other suggestions for a decent cheapish one (thanks for yours @asharperrazor)

Cheers
Matt
 
asharperrazor said:
What he said.

BelOmo is the best bang for your buck loupe. Otherwise you should stick with known quantities such as Bausch & Lomb (sp) or Nikon or another optics company.

The 30x loupes on amazon/ebay are worth less than you paid for them. But may get the job done. I think it's an actual 10x, could be wrong. Don't care to buy one.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I do have a good jewellers X10 loupe, but i wanted a x30 or X50 and went for one of the little microscopes you find on ebay.... they are cheap but not worth the money, they are nowhere the Magnification promised and they are very small and difficult to use;

Yes , you can use them for the job, but better investing the 5GBP/8$ on a VERY good one that will last a lifetime than buying a cheap crap one that you curse every time you use it.

This applies for any tool needed in the laboratory, the very good ones are expensive but last forever (some brands have lifetime warranties!!) and its a pleasure to use them.

Going back to the honing Tips... THANKS for all the advice!
 
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