Abu Hamza and four others to be deported

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Big.Dave

Big.Dave

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I've just seen a news report that the European Court of Human Rights will not reopen the case on the extradition of these men to the US.

Heres the news report BBC News

What are your thoughts on this.

My view is I hope the Americans throw the Book at them.

And that the people responsable in this country for dealing with these sorts get their arses kicked for taking so long in getting them out.
 
My view is that they don't make a difference to our daily lives, and if the price for a free society is having to tolerate the very few who abuse it then so be it.

If we need to give away a great deal of our freedoms in order to deal with a very small number of morons - and by doing so we breed more of then - then I don't think it's worth it.

The populist press, and populist government love talking about Abu Hamza while the important things like the deficit, waste, graft, etc are left on a side.
 
You only know about these people because the systems in place failed to deal with these people in the first place.
You are lucky in that nothing has happened to you the reason being is that the idiots that get duped in to doing the things they have been stopped before they could go any further.

The numbers for foiled terrorist plots are not disclosed because of the nature of the work that is counter terrorism.

Yes the deficit is a problem as are all the other social issues this country has but if the government was to stop what its doing at home to protect the public there would be a lot more bombs going off on the streets of the UK.
 
Big.Dave said:
I've just seen a news report that the European Court of Human Rights will not reopen the case on the extradition of these men to the US.

Heres the news report BBC News

What are your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...

I quickly looked at that article. Now it's not got so much to do with guilt or innocence, as much as if those guys can legally be sent to the US for trials. Turns out they can, but there's some things with at least one guy that makes some questions pop up in my head.

Seems like most of the info on one case was given straight to the US, instead of your own CPS. Why that was is now being investigated by an MP or two over there (whatever that is). From first glance, it looks like a kinda dark alley sorta deal, but who knows.

This guy may have a valid point, and he's the only one I read about. I'd have to do lots more digging to see what was really going on here with all these cases being sent away for trials.

So I really can't say if the extraditions are all fair or not. Here's a link to that one guy I mentioned, and what his story is. Maybe you can tell me what's right and wrong with his case, because I'm kinda stumped at the moment. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17606337

Martin
 
To me Abu Hamza is a side show, a distraction from the real problems. Scumbags like him feed on hatred, and that's what we serve up for him.

As for the system - you're right. It has failed to deal with him. However we cannot make laws that are specific to him, we have to make laws that apply to everyone, and because of that we have to tolerate exceptions like him where the law doesn't work.

To give the security services the power to deal with Abu Hamza and people like him would be giving them far too many powers. I think the government broadly speaking gets the balance right. I think a great deal of what they do is just for show, and pandering to populism, but they seem to broadly get the balance right between being too extreme and being too light.
 
dodgy said:
Big.Dave said:
I've just seen a news report that the European Court of Human Rights will not reopen the case on the extradition of these men to the US.

Heres the news report BBC News

What are your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...

I quickly looked at that article. Now it's not got so much to do with guilt or innocence, as much as if those guys can legally be sent to the US for trials. Turns out they can, but there's some things with at least one guy that makes some questions pop up in my head.

Seems like most of the info on one case was given straight to the US, instead of your own CPS. Why that was is now being investigated by an MP or two over there (whatever that is). From first glance, it looks like a kinda dark alley sorta deal, but who knows.

This guy may have a valid point, and he's the only one I read about. I'd have to do lots more digging to see what was really going on here with all these cases being sent away for trials.

So I really can't say if the extraditions are all fair or not. Here's a link to that one guy I mentioned, and what his story is. Maybe you can tell me what's right and wrong with his case, because I'm kinda stumped at the moment. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17606337

Martin
Click to expand...

Hi Martin what the situation is with one of the chaps is when he was arrested evidence is gathered to form a case for his arrest and prosecution when the Police do this it is handed to the CPS ( Crown Prosecution Service ) They review it and decide if the Police can proceed in taking the suspect to court.

The problem is with this type of arrest the secret service are involved and thats when strange things happen. Also after 9/11 the US and UK secret services formed strategies to share information to deal with these people and share information this looks like what has happend here where sharing intel has taken president over getting the suspect taken to court and sent down.

But all it means is that the evidence will probably get him sent to prison here and the US will have to wait until he gets out to extradite him.
 
Can't really comment on guilt or innocence of cases I've only learned of from the media, however any legal system which not only has to demonstrate a reasonable case for extradition but also pays for the initial defence & lengthy appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court in the EU whilst allowing full press coverage of the case is certainly a far cry from the instant "justice" of a totalitarian state.
If people in Gt Britain want to be concerned about a truly scarey legal position I'd suggest that the European Arrest warrant & sharing of DNA profiles presents a greater area of worry.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:
 
You may find this article interesting if your concerned about who knows what about us. Scary; past that.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/
 
" the arrests of Mr Bary and Mr al-Fawwaz date back to 1998, making them the longest-held detainees without trial in the UK " That bothers me, it's a long time to be in jail without being found guilty of anything isn't it?
 
I don't know what's worse the fact that we vote in MP's and form a goverment that we all must pay for, that as very little power, when the European parliament in Brussels and the court of human rights can tell everyone in the UK what to do, why do we need MP's, we now have so many tiers of democracy through out the UK and Europe, after voting in every local and general election and now aged 53 I have now sworn never to vote again, I have absolutely no faith in politics full stop.

Jamie.
 
Whilst entirely sharing your thoughts on career politicians, Jamie, I've taken the opposite tack and have never failed to vote in any local, regional, national or European election since I was 21 whenever I was able to.
Even though on occasion I've written, "None of the Above" across my ballot paper. Being by birth and practise one of those so cheerily (allegedly) dismissed by one of the elite who govern us as being a mere plebian I greatly value my hard earned right to vote. It wasn't won easily by my ancestors back in the days of "rotten boroughs" so it pleases me to enjoy & (ab)use it.
Having said which I'm against compulsory voting under threat of a penalty and do regret that so many now, entirely understandably, feel that their voice counts for nothing & the current political processes are irrelevant to how so many of us exist.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:
 
JohnnyO said:
Whilst entirely sharing your thoughts on career politicians, Jamie, I've taken the opposite tack and have never failed to vote in any local, regional, national or European election since I was 21 whenever I was able to.
Even though on occasion I've written, "None of the Above" across my ballot paper. Being by birth and practise one of those so cheerily (allegedly) dismissed by one of the elite who govern us as being a mere plebian I greatly value my hard earned right to vote. It wasn't won easily by my ancestors back in the days of "rotten boroughs" so it pleases me to enjoy & (ab)use it.
Having said which I'm against compulsory voting under threat of a penalty and do regret that so many now, entirely understandably, feel that their voice counts for nothing & the current political processes are irrelevant to how so many of us exist.

JohnnyO. \:icon_razz:
Click to expand...

We were given a vote to change the system and the majority decided that they like things the way they are. That was the lib dems requirement for a coalition deal.

over5feet said:
So is this rendition or extradition? you have to be very careful as both the british and the US have been accused of both.
Click to expand...

If it was rendition they the European court of human rights would have thrown the case out.
 
Johnus said:
You may find this article interesting if your concerned about who knows what about us. Scary; past that.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/
Click to expand...

Another Data centre and you are worried about what?
That they have some new kit to do what governments and hackers have been doing for years.

To give an example they've been able to track and monitor cell phones with ease since they went digital had a sim card in them.
 
pugh-the-special-one said:
I don't know what's worse the fact that we vote in MP's and form a goverment that we all must pay for, that as very little power, when the European parliament in Brussels and the court of human rights can tell everyone in the UK what to do, why do we need MP's, we now have so many tiers of democracy through out the UK and Europe, after voting in every local and general election and now aged 53 I have now sworn never to vote again, I have absolutely no faith in politics full stop.

Jamie.
Click to expand...

I'd like to think I'll always use my right to vote even though it feels like farting against thunder but like you, I have a deep-seated mistrust of politicians. I strongly echo your thoughts regarding the euro parliament and court of human rights (not worthy of capital letters) and believe Britain should be allowed to get on with things. However, politicians should be much more accountable to the general voting public especially on key areas such as expenses, performance and time. Not sure how that could be successfully implemented but it seems to me they get away with far too much without being brought to book.

As to anyone who genuinely and cynically threatens our health, safety and well being then they should jolly well be locked up for good as long as it can be clearly proven. I accept that it is not as simple as all that but it gets my goat to see European politics govern British issues and give idiots like the individual mentioned better rights then he'd give your average British citizen.
 
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