Which brush for what?

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I have been reading the forums, the reviews, etc. for quite some time now.

Many times I read that "...this brush is ideal for face lathering..." or that "...this brush has good backbone and is ideal for..."

However I am still confused and still have not found a place where I can get some concise info on which brush is for what.

So, if my preference is to use shaving cream and bowl lather, which brush is ideally best? e.g. pure badger?
Or if I like to use mostly hard soaps (e.g. MWF), which brush should I avoid using? A pure badger, which may be quite soft? And is a good pure bristle better here?
E.g. Peter lately said his 2201 is "ideally suited for face lathereing and hard soaps" (if I remember correctly). How does that come about?
And why does a Chubby 2 is better for hard soaps and not for cremes?

I understand there may not be a definitive answer, but if anyone could provide some brief guidance, I'd appreciate. It would save me time going through reviews and long threads trying to note some basics.
I am thinking of using specific brushes for specific soaps/cremes.

IMG_1292.jpg


Thanks.
 
Fido's brush is ideal for face lathering with soaps because it is of modest size and reasonably stiffness (with soft tips). The stiffness in the knot allows for good soap pick up, it's modest size means you don't have to excessively load the brush to get the correct proportion of soap to water ratio so you can build lather directly on the face quite easily. The combination of "soft tips with back bone" is also preferential for a face latherer because it supposedly lifts the beard, exfoliates and feels good too.

Hair type though is personal, some prefer scrubby, scritchy, prickly or just plain soft. The softer the hair the more refined and usually the most expensive, unfortunately it's just not that straight forward. Brush Manufacturer's have done a good job confusing us, there is not one factor that defines a good cream brush but they tend to be larger and use softer grades of hair.

I have to go to bed...to be continued
 
Architect,

There are myriad of ways manufacturers grade their brushes so I'll include those I know well and those I've come to know about:

Simpsons
Pure
Best
Super
Super Extra (Manchurian, White-just discovered this )

OLD Progress Vulfix
Boar
Pure Badger
Super Badger

Omega
Pure Bristle
Synthetic fibre
Pure Badger
Finest Silvertip

Plisson
Chinese Gray Badger
European Gray Badger
European White Badger
High Mountain White

Brush grade explaination here and
HERE

Rooney
Pure
Best
Silvertip
Super
Finest

Brush grade explanation

Semogue
2000
White Premium 90% tops mixed with White Super 70% tops

1305 and 830
Banded imitation badger Premium 90% tops

1800
Banded imitation badger Extra 75% tops mixed with Banded imitation badger Premium 90% tops

620 and 1520
Banded imitation badger Extra 75% tops

1250, 1460 and 1470
White Best 90% tops

LE 2009/SOC ( I added these two since SOC was just released mate )
Special Grade Boar

Leon/Bruno's 1st post from top

Vie-Long S.L.
Bristle
Horse
Horse/Bristle
Horse/Badger
Gray Badger
Black Badger
Silvertip Badger
White Badger

If I'm off on these pardon as I'm adding on to what I know from recent discoveries. What threw me off the most was Rooney. I reckon not all vendors ascribe to the manufacturer's grading system as silly as it may be and sometimes add their own bloody nomenclature. Case in point Classic Shaving description of "Genuine" Silvertip for a Silvertip grade. Compare that with Vintageblade. But since I've never spoken to a Rooney rep or its owner I reckon Classic's - "Genuine" Silvertip, Vintage and Executive's "Silvertip" are pretty much synonymous.

To answer your question it's all subjective. Differing beard types, skin sensitivity expectations, lathering skills ( believe it or not ), lather style ( bowl/mug latherer, face latherer, paint latherer ) can vary significantly from one shaver to another. Furthermore, with brushes generally being "natural" not even 2 models under same brand will perform the same. Different worker, different batch of knots, different day...Varying loft settings, brush density. Essentially what I'm saying to you my friend is you can read exhaustively as you clearly pointed out in your initial post and still be confused. Don't worry you are not alone.

To explain aforementioned reasons, someone's expectation of "backbone" ( I use "shaft" or "spine" ) or even density differ. Take for instance one member claiming that his Vie-Long 16590 Black badger wasn't as dense as it should be.
For me it's very impressive. Granted the centre when you push your finger down isn't as "dense" as my Simpsons B4 Pure. In spite of this I prefer my 16590 Black over the Pure because of it performed to my specifications while the B4 did not in spite of it being "dense."

Pure badgers tend to be of coarser texture and sometimes prickly tips to start with. These don't get packed in same manner higher badger grades do. Since the latter is much finer they are packed tighter. If it's shorter loft you have a dense tough spine. Too long of a loft and you have a flaccid brush. My Golden Nib ( TGN ) 22 Silvertip knot as soft as it is very much embody this trait. If it had been set to say
50-55 instead of 58 then perhaps I would favour it. It was my fault though. In any case this particular knot is too bulbous for my taste. It's flair is ginourmous and as impressive as that is, does not work for me. It's a soap and cream whore due to its density. So I never bothered using 24 and 26 knots ( truth be told the latter isn't mine anyway for at the time I fancied smaller knots ).

I'm a soap guy who enjoys creams as well. The ideal brush for me: scrubby not prickly, dense with stiff shaft but not overly stiff, have enough flex or spring rate for piston-loading ( if necessary ) from puck. So flaccid brush would be an epic FAIL.

My style of lathering is face lathering with rotary motions in conjunction with to and fro ( paint ) strokes. Rotary motions exfoliate your face more if you've tough tufts. If you paint lather then it wouldn't matter if you had sensitive skin for the prickly tips won't really ( if at all ) touch your face.

Believe it or not there are people who bowl lather creams. I don't because that is time wasted when I could be working the lather in my face. If bowl lathering cream work for you great may you shave in good health. It doesn't work for me.

As for soaps I load the brush and face lather with either boar or badger. Soaps really is virtually idiot proof and I mean that in the most complimentary way. Too much water? No problem you just have to compensate by loading the brush more. Too dry? Dip into hot water and continue to load. Cream on the other hand is not so forgiving, too much water and you have meringue-like bubbly lather. Too little-you end up looking like a cheap caked faced hooker in downtown.

Fan/Bell or Bulb/dome?
I've never thought about this until recently. General advantages in my experience with Boar is that a bulbous shape's outer bristles would be supporting the inner thus providing good "backbone." Disadvantage is that it may not tackle the bowl well if you are a bowl latherer. In the past I was very much like this. If I'd continued to do so, I would have given up on boar entirely. Since I said to myself "F this I'm gonna try something different and face lather." As such all problems were solved.

Fan-shaped brushes tend to splay more so than bulbous shaped. This would be ideal for bowl lathers. Face lathering I found that the outer bristles didn't massage my face the way bulbous one would. Further the bulbous would provide soothing suctioning sensation when you do piston movements on your face if you were working cream in there. Speaking of which let's talk about Peter's ( Fido ) New Forest Superior 2201 for a moment.

Since I don't have many badgers with similar specs I'll compare it to my Omega 81056 boar briefly. I'd use the Semogue 620 since it's the same knot size and of bulbous shape but I didn't use it enough. Anyway, both are virtually identical sans knot and loft difference:

Omega #81056 Banded Boar ( sold as mod 31056 )
Ht: 100 mm Loft: 50 mm Base: 50 mm Knot: 23 mm
*Ht: 100 mm Loft: 50 mm Base: 49 mm Knot: 23 mm

New Forest Superior Badger 2201
Ht: 100 mm Loft: 50 mm Base: 50 mm Knot: 22 mm
*Ht: 102 mm Loft: 52 mm Base: 50 mm Knot: 22 mm

As dense as the 81056 is the finer yet exfoliating properties of 2201 is on par with performance if not more so.
To spare you a novella regarding Boar's characteristics I'll be concise. Boar as you know is tougher by comparison it's like a fishing line versus the fine hairs on your arm. Boar to be fully appreciated need break-in until then you might be met with subpar if not average performance or worse-"lather hog" which can be used to describe badger as well. When the tips split becoming trident-like fork only then will the tips become softer and hold more lather thus reaching maximum efficiency. Since it is scrubby from the get go you now have a scrubby soft tipped boar that splays enough to bowl lather soaps. Due to its density and scrubby features its good for creams as well.
The 81056 is fan or trapezius shape if I didn't mention that already. Again, never really thought about bulb vs fan until of late. All I cared about was performance and not the loft shape.

2201 is packed to the max. It's just as exfoliating as the 81056 but it's softer given the Badger's characteristics. It feels like you can lather all day without getting skin irritation. The shaft is stiff as my Simfix Wee Scot but with longer loft. It retains it bulbous shape only being grossly deformed like any brush during rotary motions. I can only imagine how the fan/bell shape counterpart would perform and I sure as hell look forward to it. You can count on that.

BTW, I neglected to mention I have sensitive skin. One member as I recall isn't comfortable with bulb shape brush ( badger IIRC ) as such he prefers fan type more for he too had sensitive skin. But I'm not this way.

In truth, I use boar more but recently begun to use my badgers and with Peter's release of New Forest Superior 2201, I've appreciation for badgers as a whole much more so than in the past.
 
Phew, what can I say. May thanks for your responses, Tony and Ivan.
I'll have to print out Ivan's post and read it alongside with taking a nice cup of tea later today...
 
Or the other view (mine!) is that you can face or bowl lather soaps or creams with whatever you damn well please. :D

Some are more suited to certain tasks (ie. smaller brush for face lathering) but plenty of people use a BK8 or Chubby 3 for face lathering.

Also - hair grades are complicated even further by the natural variation in badger hair. I've had four Rooney "Supers" and all were quite different in appearance, texture and feel. In my experience, the most consistent manufacturer in terms of hair (brushes bought months apart) is Savile Row.

So, take brush reviews with a pinch of salt - there is no guarantee that your specimen will match the reviewer's exactly.

John
 
Just the man I was looking for. John can tell you more my friend.

This is worth reading if you haven't already:

Rooney Brushes - info please!

With regards to my point about even 2 same models under same brand. Scroll down to John's post:
Rooney brushes

No I'm not a stalker. It so happens I was researching badger related threads and came upon Peter's thread here as well as SMF hence my questions towards end.

BTW, if I haven't already Arch take what I say with a grain of salt. People have different perceptions and sensations. No matter how seemingly valid point may come across it does not necessarily mean it is applicable to you or anyone else for that matter.

I recall years ago there were QC issues with Simpsons. Namely, shedding of people's Chubby while others claimed otherwise.

Speaking of here's two incidences I was reading of late regarding Simpsons Chubby from 2 different people. There's no telling if it came from same batch of knots much less done by same worker on same day:

A Tale of Two Chubbies, an alternate view ...

A Tale of Two Chubbies...
 
In some ways John is right but some brushes are simply better suited to different tasks which is the crux of your question.

Generally speaking all brushes can be used with creams however that cannot be said for all brushes and soaps.

I suspect that many of your brushes are quite soft and that does make them more suitable when using with creams. The difficulty arises when you try and make a badger hair knot more usable with soaps. To do this notwithstanding hair type you do have to make a knot denser and shorter in loft and that usually means expense. The Chubby 2 is a good example but I would not hesitate in recommended it as an equally adept cream brush, the 2 band version is an excellent brush.
 
Sure Tony, I agree, and thanks for your second post.

I believe most of my brushes are indeed fairly soft (now I will be evaluating all of them from a different perspective). In any case the Chubby 2, the SR3824 and the PJ2 Super will probably be the next alternatives for purchase. They are all supposed to be a very good brushes. I've also made an attempt last week to have two brushes custom made here, but this is on hold at the moment as I cannot get my PayPal account to work (despite the fact that the card has been well verified). New Forest 2201 is a nice additional option but as mentioned I need to get my PayPal thing going.

Point is general, though. A better general understanding helps get a clearer picture of an occasionally fuzzy reality. And to this, you, John and Ivan have helped here (and of course many others through their contributions in boards and reviews).

It practically all gets down to a very basic rule in life: common sense - the trait that is perceived to be so simple to have but that is actually so hard to really possess and apply when needed. Some basic rules, few parameters to pay attention to - the loft length, the backbone, the softness / scrubbness / prickliness, the feel of the whole thing, the choice of cream/soap and how will lathering be applied. Following that, it's just testing and practice, as with all things in life.

It's always nice to discover again and again that there is one basic rule: that there are no rules in anything, really.

Konstantinos
 
antdad said:
In some ways John is right but some brushes are simply better suited to different tasks which is the crux of your question.

Anthony is also correct - although there are brushes out there that will do soaps/creams/bowl/face equally well. I believe it's possible to have one brush for all tasks! My Savile Row 3122 is a fine example. Having used "dedicated" soap and cream brushes, I don't believe I'm missing out on anything.

Of course, you may prefer to have a soap-specific brush and a larger, softer cream-only brush, for the variety, if nothing else. And any excuse to buy another brush is good!

Just don't believe the people who say you must have a dense, short lofted, scrubby brush for soaps. They may pick up the soap a bit quicker, but conversely they may feel uncomfortable on your face after a few passes. They also tend to hog the lather. This is why I sold all my Rooneys and Simpsons. I guess I'm a wuss! :mrgreen:

Also, if you're face lathering and not using a bowl, you may want a mid-size brush to hold enough lather for all your passes. Personally I hate having to re-lather mid-shave, which is what I find with small brushes.

John
 
Another thing....

There is also a tendency for face latherers to use soap, and bowl latherers to use cream. I don't know why this is. I guess if it's repeated enough on the forums it becomes Gospel.

You can face lather with creams and bowl lather soaps equally well.

John
 
John, we all know you sold your collection of brushes because of your impending tax bill so don't mislead the fella into believing you did it out of choice and anyway you'd have your old Rooney Heritage Stubby 2 back in an instant. ;)

Secondly I don't believe there are "lather hogs" as such just brushes that require the correct amount of loading with soap and water, some just require more. If it isn't producing the desired lather you are doing something incorrectly.

Konstantinos, if the PJ2 Super 2 band is on your radar, Fido's 2201 is basically a clone of that brush.
 
John's SBAD is only slightly less disturbing than my blade acquisition disorder.

If the Chubby 2, the SR3824 and the PJ2 Super are all on your list to me you need them all because they are very different animals. The Chubby 2 is quite different from the SR3824 and the PJ2 is out there on its own. If I had to pick one I would pick none of them and go for Fidos New Forest PJ2 style.

My Simpsons PJ2 in two band cost around £100 Fido is selling his on here for a quarter of that price, I have only resisted picking one up myself because I have a PJ2 2 band and feel it would not offer anything additional to what I own now, but do I look at it now and again and think "would having a spare PJ2 be a bad thing?" and then umm and aww a bit.

Depends on what you want right now, I do like the SR brushes they are real quality items and the Chubby 2 is like a rite of passage, fully loaded this is a big full in the face brush. All of them have their attractions I guess you have to ask yourself what you want from that new brush and take it from there.
 
antdad said:
John, we all know you sold your collection of brushes because of your impending tax bill so don't mislead the fella into believing you did it out of choice and anyway you'd have your old Rooney Heritage Stubby 2 back in an instant. ;)

Ha! You may be right.... but seriously - I was rather skint at the time, and to be honest I knew I didn't really need that many brushes.

Secondly I don't believe there are "lather hogs" as such just brushes that require the correct amount of loading with soap and water, some just require more. If it isn't producing the desired lather you are doing something incorrectly.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. My lathering technique is sound, and I load all my brushes thoroughly for at least a minute, usually more. The amount of lather (and quality of) is not the issue. Rather, it's the fact that the really dense brushes just don't let go of it. You end up just moving a thinnish layer of lather around your face, rather than applying a thick coat. There's a hell of a load of lather there, but the brush wants it all to itself!

I find less dense brushes like my SR are still dense to have good backbone yet they apply lather far easier and more evenly and I get a nice thick coat of lather without much effort. To me, this is what a shaving brush is (or should be) designed to do.

However, very dense brushes do feel awfully nice on the face (on the first pass at least). It's after passes 2-3 that it starts to feel a bit uncomfortable. The only really dense brush that I've used that is the exception is the Stubby 2, due to the wonderfully soft tips of the old three band Heritage hair.

John
 
jhclare said:
...The only really dense brush that is the exception is the Stubby 2, due to the wonderfully soft tips of the old three band Heritage hair...

A three band. That must be a hell of a brush.

Coming back to the hair softness, who would want especially a 'prickling' or 'scrubby' brush? Perhaps someone with thick stubble, I suppose.
Scrubbing is naturally good for the skin, of course. Which brush is known to give prickling? Will the hairs not soften a bit after some use anyway?

And thanks for Audiolab's comments as well, very useful.
 
jhclare said:
Or the other view (mine!) is that you can face or bowl lather soaps or creams with whatever you damn well please. :D

Yeah, that... what appears to be the best brush/blade/razor/combo on paper might not work on your face - partly because we're all different and have different priorities, but mostly because our faces & beards aren't made of paper.
 
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