Honing questions

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angelix

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I have the following hones: combo King 1000/6000 + tri Set from AJ/Ebay.

I have already , with a satisfactory grade of success, honed a couple of rasors; I find soothing and relaxing the restoration and honing process and having obtained a small collection of old pcs I would like to properly take care of them and in the meantime enjoy my new hobby.

I have been reading a lot but the more I search the more I get confused, in any case I apologize in advance if my questions have been already asked.

- Setting the Bevel: here and there I read that the bevel needs to be set, I do not have any doubts about that specificly in old razors that need to be repaired or restored. Most of the videos and guides online suggest to stick some tape on the spine to avoid excessive wear. Does this tape have a big influense in the ANGLE of the NEW bevel? once the tape is removed and one starts polishing the bevel, the angle varies, and , theoretically, would take much longer to reach a satisfactory edge, wearing in the meantime the spine; moreover it sounds to me that taking off the tape and then encreasing the GRIT, it is like having to set a new bevel but with a higher grit stone. Am I wrong / missing something?

- Progression: once the bevel is set on the 1000grit, is it OK to go straight on the 6000 (thats the combo I have) or would it be better to go through a 3-4K and alternate it to the 6K? What stone would you suggest?

- finalizing the Edge: I got my self the Tri-stone set everyone talks abot (or used to) which is advertized to be a 10-15K grit depending on the stone (black the lower, purple in the middle and green the higher). I am not sure that I like the green, sometimes I feel it grainy and , out of the 3, the one I got better the hand of is the purple. Anyway, after the last step, to get the bevel mirror polished do I need to rely on the strop? Strop+Paste? I use as a comparison a professionally honed razor and the feel is like the edge of the ones I honed is not as sharp as it could be (HHT barely passed), but then on shaving I cannot see much difference...still the feeling is that it could be improved. Are there any tips?

- Lapping Stone: When I got my hones I lapped them using a nice 1/2" thick glass with a 80-120 grit sand paper. How often do I need to lap the hones? would it be better to get a Lapping stone? Any suggestions?

All my honing is for personal use and although I understand that it might be convenient to send them out , I like to learn something new and have fun doing it, so the cost (within certain limits, of course) is not an issue.

Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.
 
Whether you need tape or not depends on the state of the existing bevel (how much work to be done) and whether there are any kinks/warps in the spine.

If the bevel looks OK you need to look at it under magnification to see if both sides meet in a point - if not, you need to make that happen.

If you use tape it will alter the angle. If you set the bevel and then remove the tape, you will then be working on the top of the bevel rather than the point, so you need more work than usual to get back down to the tip of the bevel. The spine will, of course, show signs of hone wear now - just how much is hard to say, but probably little less than if you had not used tape to start with. So either use tape and keep renewing it, or don't use tape.

From 1k to 6k is a bit of a jump. It is preferable to approximately double up on the grit ratings each time, eg 1k, 2, 4, 8k, 16k so you will need at least another hone before your 6k, maybe a 2, 3 or 4k.

RE: the tri-hone set, the 15k rating is wrong. The finest stone in the series would be the equivalent of 11 - 12k. The purple ones vary enormously - somewhere in the region of 9k - 10k I would say.

As for polishing the bevel, slates leave a slightly less shiny surface than some other hones, natural and man-made included. a 10k or 12k naniwa super stone will do the job (and be better than your slates in my opinion), so will a reasonably hard coticule, a 15k shapton pro, a 16k shapton glass stone and numerous others.

Stropping on a strop with black paste is the old way of polishing the bevel.

HHT is only of use as a guide to someone who has programmed it into his honing technique - it is of questionable use to other people (hairs, environment, etc affect it, as does the way the hair is held). A razor that does not pass HHT can shave as well as a razor that does. Even the choice of strop used can affect the result.

If the edge feels like it can be improved, then go back to the final hone. Forget about polishing on a strop - you may be rolling the edge. If you have got the best edge possible and it still feels a bit iffy, then question the steel formulation of the razor. It may be a little on the soft side. It might be poor quality steel. There are a lot of possibilities.

I would forget the lapping stone - they have to flat themselves before use and will affect the hone detrimentally if they are not. A diamond plate around 240 - 325 is better (except for novaculite hones) such as DMT or Atoma. Failing that you can't really do much better than the process you are using at present.

How often to lap? - depends on the softness of the hone. Hard naturals need much less lapping than soft synthetics. I lap before every honing session - takes one of the variables out of the equation.

Regards,
Neil
 
I use Naniwa superstones (if I could do it again, I'd buy Chosera (that said, my 5k is worn down enough that I'll be replacing it soon)) and lap them when they get loaded up with the metal particles which equates to every 10-20 razors.

The Chosera 2k can just be scrubbed down for the most part and lapped infrequently.

Natural stones vary based on each stone. Can't really give you any specific advice on that tri stone.
 
Just to add to Neil's comments about tape, on the coticule forum there is a calculator that advises on the number of layers of tape dependent on the thickness of spine and width of blade. This is particularly important for wedge type razors - if you can't find it, drop me a pm and I wll look it up.

As Neil said, either use tape or don't use it - you cannot start and then discard it part way through. If you do use it then:

1) Replace it when it shows signs of wearing - this will happen more quickly on lower grit stones.
2) Use the tape right through to the final stone but you can remove it prior to stropping.

My opinion on pasted strops ( and I stress that it's my opinion as others may disagree) is that they are part of a maintenance regime rather than the initial sharpening and polishing process. Certainly, if you think that the razor is not sharp enough to shave after hones then don't rely on paste or other compounds to finish the job - go back to the hones and make sure the bevel is set properly. This is particularly important with problem razors where you may feel that you are getting nowhere on the hones. If this happens, a pasted strop will not make a significant difference.

Rob
 
Adding possibly more confusion, but you can always add tape, but you can't take it away without going back a step or starting over.

What I mean is that you can add a secondary bevel whose angle is greater than the primary bevel. Quite common in knives, not so common in razors, but there are advocates.

The only time I would recommend adding tape is when you're on the 1k stone and having difficulty setting the bevel because someone else in the past honed it with the spine lifted. At that point, it cuts down the time very significantly if you add tape to increase the bevel angle.

In all other situations, *I prefer* not to use tape.
 
Using tape on the last stone - for just a few laps, say 5 or so, is quite common, especially among coticule users who aren't satisfied with the 'softness' of the edge that they often get without the final taping step. Secondary bevels are old - TI made extensive use of them - might still do as far as I know, and nearly all the Timor offerings out of Solingen have a secondary bevel. If you can't quite address the edge with the hone as-is, then the secondary bevel is a way around it.

I tend to get mostly old, knackered razors to hone - not exclusively, but quite often. In that case the original bevel angle is lost - the spine is now too thin to subtend the correct angle, so using tape brings it back again. I get a lot of gold-washed spines, figured spines and lettered spines - rather than obliterate lettering or disfigure nice edges and gold wash, I use tape very often - maybe 8 times out of ten.

I agree with Rob about the pasted strop - its more maintenance than anything else. As he says, if you can't get the edge on the hone, then something else is wrong.

Sometimes things look fine all the way through bevel setting to 5, 6, or 8k, and then you begin to see that there is a problem. With the razors I get to hone, 7 times out of 10 it is a very slight warp - it is masked by the relative coarseness of the hones up until a certain grit, then gets ever more noticeable. Carrying on regardless in this scenario is of no help at all - you just end up polishing the sides of a blunt bevel. Dropping well back in grit and adding a layer of tape gets over minimal warps, but then you have to re-hone until the previous bevel is masked, taking a lot of extra time, maybe twice as long and you still have the final hones to get through.

With extreme warps you may well have to take high spots of the spine by regular honing, then polish the spine wear so it doesn't look too coarse, then tape up and start all over again. By now it has taken you three times longer than normal and you still aren't home.

With very extreme warps it sometimes gets dark before you are anywhere near finished. In this event it is best to untape the razor, carefully dry it, and venture forth into the darkness to sample the delights of the local. As long as no one mentions razors or sharp objects while you are there the chances are that you will awake next morning at home, suitably refreshed to tackle the recalcitrant razor once again, rather than frantically ringing around for a solicitor in the local lock-up. So I've been told.

And people do this for a living? Stroll on.

Regards,
Neil
 
Neil's last post has just made my day because this week I had two frustrating days of not achieving anything. In particular, I had one razor that needed reducing because of nibbles on the edge - this obviously means that you are going to remove a lot of metal in creating the new bevel. However, I just did not seem to be getting anywhere even though the new bevel was perfectly even along the length - so I cleaned my hones and put them away. Next day, it took maybe 15 minutes to get a perfectly acceptable, shave ready edge.
 
UKRob said:
Neil's last post has just made my day because this week I had two frustrating days of not achieving anything. In particular, I had one razor that needed reducing because of nibbles on the edge - this obviously means that you are going to remove a lot of metal in creating the new bevel. However, I just did not seem to be getting anywhere even though the new bevel was perfectly even along the length - so I cleaned my hones and put them away. Next day, it took maybe 15 minutes to get a perfectly acceptable, shave ready edge.
Click to expand...

Many times, the end looks miles away, when in reality, it's just over the next hill.

I suppose the opposite is also true, perhaps in equal measure.
 
Thanks for posting that Jamie - it was interesting to note that he uses a lot more pressure on the early stones than I thought was advised. Certainly, I always use far less than that which probably explains why it takes me so long. I'll use more in future having seen that.
 
Thanks for the tips!!


It is very interesting the video, that one I missed.

I did put your advice into practice and honed a Puma 89 I am refurbishing (will open another therad with the pictures!) and I can see an improvement in the results.

I did keep replacing the tape often and the edge actually took very little time to set and the hole honing process was definitively faster.

The next Razor I will try the tecnique shown in the video and see how it goes.

There are three things I find difficult:
- working one hand only
- putting "zero" pressure
- the HTT test which I dont really get it....

I guess the 1-2 hands tecnique is just a matter of preference whilst the more or less pressure is just a matter of practicing.

As for the HTT test, the reazors I honed will cut the HH only after stropping, not before.
On the Puma justv honed I could definitively feel a big improvement in the edge but the HTT was passed only after the stropping , just few passes on a leather strop, but definitively , these were needed.

Anyway, will keep pracicing, there is nothing like the excercise to get better and better.
 
pugh-the-special-one said:
Lynn Abrams uses a 1K, 5K, 8K and 12K progression, I've tried this myself and find it works perfectly well.

Jamie

[video=youtube]http://youtu.be/GQd8lOd1yqI[/video]
Click to expand...

That is the video I used for my first honing session. It took me a couple of attempts to set the bevel.....but I got there in the end!
 
The HHT is questioned by many, however it's personal preference (since each hair type is different), but I only do it after I've stropped, as a conformation (all razors that I've honed and that have passed my HHT has been shave ready, some that didn't pass too and some not).

Re Lynns honing and pressure, it's easy to go wrong when adding pressure, but you really have to find out for yourself (don't use your prettiest razor though, since the bevel can come out a little funny, if you add to much pressure).
 
Mikael said:
Re Lynns honing and pressure, it's easy to go wrong when adding pressure, but you really have to find out for yourself (don't use your prettiest razor though, since the bevel can come out a little funny, if you add to much pressure).
Click to expand...

That is why the first razor I honed was a Gold Dollar! I think my good ones will still go to a Pro.
 
Gold Dollars are the worst razor to learn honing on. Unless you bought it sharpened. IMO.

They're sharpened like a knife at the factory. Huge PITA. I use power tools on them. Cuts the time down dramatically.

If you use pressure reduce the number of strokes before checking the bevel. You also need to be sure to add the pressure evenly along the bevel. Very easy to add more pressure on the toe than the heel.

I would be wary of using two hands. I imagine it would be quite easy to add excessive pressure at the toe by using the other hand. IMO.
 
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