advice regards touch-up hone

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326
Can anybody advise me on a suitable hone that would be good to use in touching-up a blade when stropping alone doesn't quite cut it. Also advice on when and how to use a hone for touching-up and are the old style barber hones okay? At the moment it's not needed but come the time when one is needed I'd like to have one at hand and know what to do with it. Thanks, Adam.
 
It rather depends on what sort of edge you like, I'm afraid. At the smooth end of the scale a coticule suggests itself, but if you want a really aggressive edge something like the Spyderco UF ceramic will do the trick with minimal maintenance. For reasons I won't go into I've been messing around with some different finishing hones recently, but I still say that a NOS Thuringian (usually available from Neil) is a good cost effective compromise.

As for when to hone, if the razor is starting to pull or just doesn't seem up to scratch, and stropping doesn't remedy things, that's the time. This article covers the basics of technique, and there's plenty more where that came from (the SRP Wiki).

You'll probably get a fuller answer from Neil before long.
 
Thanks for that Andy. So how do the old barber hones fair against the coticule or the thuringian when it comes to touching-up and another deciding facter for me, price?
 
I don't know much about barber hones, but if you can get a cheap one it will very likely do the job nicely. They're very mild, so it's definitely a case of touching up only. The Spyderco UF was intended as a sort of modern take on the barber hones: I hope Neil will drop in on this thread because he has some interesting ideas about how to use them in combination with abrasive compounds for more flexibility. My feeling is that the UF is a good product, vicious edges not withstanding, but at £60 or thereabouts it's not by any means the cheapest solution.

A Müller thuringian will set you back 26.50 Euro from Olivia (wouldn't you just know that Neil would have run out for the time being?), and it's quite a flexible option because you can use it with slurry for faster cutting, or with plain water for a final finish. The edges aren't the sharpest, but they're comfortable to shave with.

Another option which has just occurred to me is a Belgian Blue whetstone, available from various sources. Nominally they're about 4000 grit which sounds very low, but I've heard encouraging reports about how they fare for finishing. That's one test that I haven't got around to doing just yet, but I'll report back if the results are encouraging. Prices vary with size - they're pretty cheap though compared to their more celebrated cousins, the coticules.

A waterstone of the Japanese variety is also a possibility. The grit ratings are reliable and they work well, but they do require regular flattening. The finer ones are more expensive, so this is unlikely to be the cheapest route to follow.

It's also well worth keeping an eye on Neil's vintage stock: there's a useful looking Idwal there at the moment for £35.
 
Thanks again for some useful info Andy. So, where to go from here for you mentioned two words; sharp and mild. Andy how do you get the balance between the two?
 
I'll let you know when I work it out ;)

I think that it has a lot to do with the nature of the abrasive particles and the scratch patterns they leave. Coticules and BBWs contain garnets which break down easily and have obtuse facets: in practice this means that the stones work fairly quickly with new cutting edges being constantly exposed, but the abrasive action is relatively mild and the scratches shallow. That's why a soft coticule like mine forms slurry very easily (that in itself has a slight edge-rounding effect) and gives a very smooth edge - very comfortable to shave with, but it doesn't feel so very sharp. I find it difficult to get good hanging hair test passes from a coticule without stropping - that's got to be technique to some extent, but it's also down to a lack of the micro serrations which catch the hair.

The other extreme is the diamond plate. If you set a bevel on one of those at, say, 600 grit, it will feel very aggressive and "raspy" sharp - it will shave arm hair very easily and may very well pass a HHT - this isn't the kind of edge you'd want to put anywhere near your face though. What you have here is an edge with deep scratches in it, giving it a set of teeth like a saw which are just the thing for grabbing hairs. The diamonds have acute facets, and on account of their hardness don't break down regularly. Scale that edge down 20 times or so and it's something like what you get from a Spyderco. Much smoother to be sure, and certainly shaveable, but it's still jagged and has a lot of "grab". HHTs are a breeze with that stone, as are nicks and slices.

For my purposes the right sort of compromise lies closer to the smooth end of things, so the thuringian works well. The particles are held in a harder matrix and slurry doesn't form spontaneously (you have to rub the hone either with a diamond plate or another chunk of the same stone), so there's less tendency for the edge to round over, but the abrasive action is still quite mild. However, people with tougher beards than mine may want more attack, which is why I've been playing about with some alternatives recently. Hard black Arkansas has been promising (but oh so slow), so has a greenish mystery hone with a glassy hard surface which takes the edge towards the "ninja sharp" (copyright: Mikael) end of the spectrum without it being too unpleasant to use. I'm only guessing, but that stone probably has a lot in common with the Charnley Forest hones.

In summary, smoother: soft matrix, slurry, abrasive particles with obtuse facets; sharper: sharp edged particles, and all other things being equal a hard matrix, no slurry.

Disclaimer: the above may be a load of old cobblers, and there's loads of omissions. I've thought long and hard about this and done a bit of experimentation recently, but it's just my opinion as it stands to date. ;)
 
zig zag,

The Spyderco UF used with 0.5 or 0,25 micron diamond sprays is a very fast and good way to refresh an edge.

About 10 - 20 laps, followed by 10 - 20 laps on a CrOx pasted paddle and you should be good to go.

I have been refreshing my edges like this for about a month to see how it went - previously I would use a 10 or 12 k Naniwa waterstone.

Good luck :)

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ
 
The old style barber hones can be quite a high grit rating, but can go relatively low as well - maybe a range of 9k - 14k for arguments sake, although most I have tried tend to be at the lower end of the scale. What they all have in common is that they are quick - you only need five laps or so. I don't think they leave a very smooth-feeling edge compared to most modern high-grit synthetics.

The spyderco UHF is a very good stone indeed, and the ability to use it as a surface with other powders, etc, is great. It requires a bit of commitment and experimentation to find out what works best for the individual though, so if you want something that requires very little user input and is a known good solution then it is probably not for you.

Relatively cheap modern synthetics that require little dexterity, are easy to use and give a good smooth edge would include the Shapton Superstones, 10k and 12k: both are very good stones and available for a decent price from Edenwebshops.

Naturals like the thuringians give the same or better edges, but can be very costly and being natural you are never quite sure what you are going to get. They also require a bit of user-input to get the best out of them.

The harder naturals like charnley forest, arkansas - both novaculites, will give a very good edge too but on the sharper side of smooth: Mikael-sharp rather than Arrowhead-smooth! The edge can be modified - by using oil rather than water for example, but will always be quite crisp.

Don't forget the lowly chrome-oxide: ggod as an edge refresher and also for smoothing an edge fresh from a crisp hone. And cheap as chips.

Regards,
Neil
 
Thanks for your posts chaps and with all things considered I will give it some thought. If I want to use the chrome-oxide without putting it on my strop what can I use, as I've read that balsa is good but does that need a base as well? Thanks, Adam.
 
zig zag said:
Thanks for your posts chaps and with all things considered I will give it some thought. If I want to use the chrome-oxide without putting it on my strop what can I use, as I've read that balsa is good but does that need a base as well? Thanks, Adam.

If you want to use CrOx, either use an old strop, or as mentioned balsa.
Balsa does not need a base, just get a thick & wide enough piece at your local modelshop.
A word of warning on CrOx, do it outside and wear gloves. (the green gets everywhere!)

It's easy and cheap ;)

Max
 
FrenchBlade said:
zig zag said:
Thanks for your posts chaps and with all things considered I will give it some thought. If I want to use the chrome-oxide without putting it on my strop what can I use, as I've read that balsa is good but does that need a base as well? Thanks, Adam.

If you want to use CrOx, either use an old strop, or as mentioned balsa.
Balsa does not need a base, just get a thick & wide enough piece at your local modelshop.
A word of warning on CrOx, do it outside and wear gloves. (the green gets everywhere!)

It's easy and cheap ;)

Max

Yip use it everyday here :lol: :oops:
 
FrenchBlade said:
zig zag said:
Thanks for your posts chaps and with all things considered I will give it some thought. If I want to use the chrome-oxide without putting it on my strop what can I use, as I've read that balsa is good but does that need a base as well? Thanks, Adam.

If you want to use CrOx, either use an old strop, or as mentioned balsa.
Balsa does not need a base, just get a thick & wide enough piece at your local modelshop.
A word of warning on CrOx, do it outside and wear gloves. (the green gets everywhere!)

It's easy and cheap ;)

Max

I use some oil to mix and bind it to the balsa + you save CrOx that way, but I´m a _really_ cheap bastard :lol:
 
Thanks chaps, looks like a cheap way of keeping the blade keen. One more question, can any other oil be used to mix with the c-oxide such as baby oil, or is it too thick? Regards, Adam.
 
Any decent oil would do: olive oil, camellia, etc. I don't think baby oil would do any harm - you are only using it as a carrier to hold the powder after all, and will be wiping the blade (bar the bevel) to get rid of any excess - not that there should be any excess - you want to work it into the balsa sparingly, not slather it all over the place. A good way to do it is to make a lot of little dots or dabs, then spread them out with a scrap bit of rag. It's good if you can still see the balsa in places - you don't want it to resemble a billiards table.

Regards,
Neil
 
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