The ugly side to importing and selling 'artisan' soap
- Thread starter Burgundy
- Start Date
- Joined
- Monday November 4, 2013
- Location
- West Yorkshire
Thanks for starting this debate. This is not about whether a product will disintegrate our faces or not, or if we should listen to "the unelected elite in Brussels", it's about business ethics and practices. I'll refrain from contributing, as I'm sure some others will abstain too.
- Joined
- Tuesday July 8, 2014
OP started this earlier on a Facebook forum and rightly or wrongly (prob wrongly) it was deleted. I have no problem with it being raised but the OP shows some persistence without revealing his motives. He comes across as pompous to suggest traders should cease trading at his behest.
Why not just let us make up our own minds instead of acting like the soap police!
Rant over.
Why not just let us make up our own minds instead of acting like the soap police!
Rant over.
- Joined
- Saturday May 4, 2013
- Location
- Netherlands
IMHO the real problem is not with non-EU soap artisans not following the EU regulations. The problem is with EU regulations being unfair for local artisan producers. Not only for shaving soaps, but for many small scale artisan producers.
OP
- Joined
- Monday June 18, 2012
- Location
- Hampshire, UK
- Thread Starter
- #23
Isn't it obvious?themadremmy said:
I'm Batman.
Thanks for realigning the thread and drawing attention back to the issue at hand, Stavros.Stavros said:
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I'll try to respond to people's contributions tomorrow. Especially you, Carl! Ironically, I'm going to New York on Wednesday. Anybody want me to pick up anything?!
- Joined
- Sunday September 6, 2009
Of course it's possible that some people who may be doing this aren't actually aware of the extraordinarily onerous EU regulations. They're not exactly common knowledge. So words like racketeering and unethical may be a little harsh?
The law is indeed the law; I would make the point that I doubt any individual American artisan combined with a small UK distributer could achieve compliance and economical viability at the same time, on either side of the pond. But I could be wrong about that, and maybe some people find it easier than I to navigate their way through the morass of legislation and uploading to EU websites.
Not to mention paying for safety assessments.
The regulations are certainly in the consumer's favour. Soap is included here as a cosmetic, whereas I don't think it is in the US, so their legislation about it is less restrictive (unless that's changed recently - last I heard, it was on the cards). So yes, EU produced soap is subject to more safety controls than US ones. I don't know about other products, and how FDA regs compare with EU for those.
My personal view, given the time and expense caused by EU regs, is that they should be watered down somewhat for small producers. The way things are going, the only choices eventually will be L'Oreal, Proctor and Gamble and the like. Because small producers simply won't be able to continue with half their time and profit going into compliance. Ask me how I know....
So a little to the side of the topic, for which I apologise. But some additional context, I hope.
The law is indeed the law; I would make the point that I doubt any individual American artisan combined with a small UK distributer could achieve compliance and economical viability at the same time, on either side of the pond. But I could be wrong about that, and maybe some people find it easier than I to navigate their way through the morass of legislation and uploading to EU websites.
Not to mention paying for safety assessments.The regulations are certainly in the consumer's favour. Soap is included here as a cosmetic, whereas I don't think it is in the US, so their legislation about it is less restrictive (unless that's changed recently - last I heard, it was on the cards). So yes, EU produced soap is subject to more safety controls than US ones. I don't know about other products, and how FDA regs compare with EU for those.
My personal view, given the time and expense caused by EU regs, is that they should be watered down somewhat for small producers. The way things are going, the only choices eventually will be L'Oreal, Proctor and Gamble and the like. Because small producers simply won't be able to continue with half their time and profit going into compliance. Ask me how I know....
So a little to the side of the topic, for which I apologise. But some additional context, I hope.
- Joined
- Sunday March 22, 2015
- Location
- USA
@soapalchemist, the question of how products are regulated here in the U.S. is quite complex since the deregulation of the Reagan era. Natural soap (real soap) is not regulated by the FDA but is monitored by the Dept. of Agriculture. However, soaps that contain detergent, emulsifiers, sudsing agents, artificial fragrances, and the like are regulated by the FDA as cosmetics and have to follow very strict protocols.
Artisans can avoid these two agencies because they are too small to get noticed, but small businesses that produce products like soaps are regulated with some leeway given. So, if you're buying from an Artisan like Mystic Waters you have to trust she is following USDA guidelines. (She does.) But, not all of them do.
Artisans can avoid these two agencies because they are too small to get noticed, but small businesses that produce products like soaps are regulated with some leeway given. So, if you're buying from an Artisan like Mystic Waters you have to trust she is following USDA guidelines. (She does.) But, not all of them do.
Very interesting topic. I did see this posted on a Facebook community the other day and wanted to answer to it there, didn't realise it had been removed.
I have purchased these products, sold in the UK by distributors, and also purchased direct from the USA. I have a bad reaction to one soap but some of the others I've actually enjoyed using quite a lot. the first thing that really hits you with a lot of US made soaps is the scents knock your head off, think some of those guys have problem with smelling :icon_razz:
Some of the US soaps I own, CRSW and Soap commander are amongst my favourites but I can see where the OP is coming from. we are all driven a little bit by the latest fashion or fad and a seeing a new soap hit the scene and get great reviews makes us want to go and try it. The modern digital world makes this so much easier now with internet forums and Facebook groups and Youtube to hear and see these products, and easier to purchase them regardless of local distribution.
Of course the other side of that is the internet also means that distributors can't feign ignorance in compliance issues, as this information is readily available.
Last week I used Fitjar Folgefonn, a wonderful soap made in Norway. Another company who decided that the cost of EU compliance was too heavy a cost to justify the profits and effort to make and sell the product. A great shame but at the end of the day respect to the owner for deciding to pack up rather than sell down some backstreet alley to shavers desperate for their next soap fix.
There is a lot worth thinking about here. Free trade is one thing but ignoring costs, compliance and, I suppose to a degree, safety is another.
It is worth pondering, I certainly would rather support a local UK business than purchase direct from the USA, not just because of the risk of customs, but we need these guys and some go to a lot of effort to bring in great products and make them available.
I have purchased these products, sold in the UK by distributors, and also purchased direct from the USA. I have a bad reaction to one soap but some of the others I've actually enjoyed using quite a lot. the first thing that really hits you with a lot of US made soaps is the scents knock your head off, think some of those guys have problem with smelling :icon_razz:
Some of the US soaps I own, CRSW and Soap commander are amongst my favourites but I can see where the OP is coming from. we are all driven a little bit by the latest fashion or fad and a seeing a new soap hit the scene and get great reviews makes us want to go and try it. The modern digital world makes this so much easier now with internet forums and Facebook groups and Youtube to hear and see these products, and easier to purchase them regardless of local distribution.
Of course the other side of that is the internet also means that distributors can't feign ignorance in compliance issues, as this information is readily available.
Last week I used Fitjar Folgefonn, a wonderful soap made in Norway. Another company who decided that the cost of EU compliance was too heavy a cost to justify the profits and effort to make and sell the product. A great shame but at the end of the day respect to the owner for deciding to pack up rather than sell down some backstreet alley to shavers desperate for their next soap fix.
There is a lot worth thinking about here. Free trade is one thing but ignoring costs, compliance and, I suppose to a degree, safety is another.
It is worth pondering, I certainly would rather support a local UK business than purchase direct from the USA, not just because of the risk of customs, but we need these guys and some go to a lot of effort to bring in great products and make them available.
- Joined
- Sunday September 6, 2009
Interesting MarshalArtist; if I understand what you're saying, there is no regulation of the amount of essential oils that a soap maker could use in a recipe?
soapalchemist said:
Reading some stuff earlier this year, the FDA only really gets interested if the soaps makes "moisturising" claims and therefore becomes part of cosmetics. also not 100% sure you need to actually list ingredients in largest quantity first. i may be wrong here but this was something the guy seemed to know a lot about (think it was Shave Nook).
The lack of regulation in essential oils may have something to do with the very strong scents some of these soaps have.
- Joined
- Sunday September 6, 2009
It's quite hard to get a very overpowering scent with essential oils, apart from particularly pungent ones like Patchouli and Vetyver. I would expect that the overpowering ones are using fragrance oils.
- Joined
- Saturday January 28, 2012
- Location
- Southampton
If it's good enough for American chins, it's good enough for mine. Besides which, a fully approved tub of TOBS just plain eats my skin and is not good for me.
Besides which, we still don't know how a consumer can distinguish between a compliant product and a non-compliant one. 'Tain't on the can, t'ain't on the website and I don't expect it's on the shelf, either.
Actually, who'da thunk shaving soap needs regulating beyond what our faces tells us? The way we talk to each other about new products, a rogue soap company would soon be out of business.
I'm going back to eating curved bananas.
In the marine industry, we no longer - as of a very few years ago - have to change out the lifeboats and all the rest of the safety equipment when a ship changes Registry (national flag). It's called Reciprocal Approval. I wonder if this could possibly be extended to shaving soaps?
Besides which, we still don't know how a consumer can distinguish between a compliant product and a non-compliant one. 'Tain't on the can, t'ain't on the website and I don't expect it's on the shelf, either.
Actually, who'da thunk shaving soap needs regulating beyond what our faces tells us? The way we talk to each other about new products, a rogue soap company would soon be out of business.
I'm going back to eating curved bananas.
In the marine industry, we no longer - as of a very few years ago - have to change out the lifeboats and all the rest of the safety equipment when a ship changes Registry (national flag). It's called Reciprocal Approval. I wonder if this could possibly be extended to shaving soaps?