Heineken Cup - English & French

Now I know this is getting off the track, but what if Celtic also played in the Premiership - would that be better for them as a club and also for their fans?
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For Celtic it would... but they are an anomaly in the Scottish league which is a shambles because of them and the lack of competition.

But you are right, the structure needs to be changed taking all of Europe into account. There's no silver-bullet though... and with many different agendas it hard to see where the leadership to fix it will come from.
 
jb74 said:
For Celtic it would... but they are an anomaly in the Scottish league which is a shambles because of them and the lack of competition.
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'Lack of competition' - brings us nicely back to the situation in the Rabodirect league which started this entertaining thread.:icon_razz:
 
Celtic can go out and spend a million or two on a fella... Dundee can't.

The Welsh should be a lot stronger... but their best players are jumping ship.

It's not the Rabo league that's the problem its the quality of teams... and that's not to say they're all weak, because they're not.

If the Welsh can't cut it in the Rabo, what hope have they in the Anglo-Welsh league... oh, that's right, more money, less problems :) The Irish aren't awash in cash...
 
I think the English and French teams want to stay in the Heineken cup but not if they feel financially disadvantaged or sportingly disadvantaged (broad term I know). European rugby may have to, in the words of a famous welshman Ny Bevan, stuff their mouths with gold to get them to stay in the competition
 
I didn't make myself clear, the reference to lack of competition was intended to apply to the fact that entry to the Heineken Cup is virtually guaranteed. That is the source of the problem for the English and French clubs which is where you began.
 
Hey, look... I agree.

Again, comparing it to Champions League, part of me would rather not have to watch Barca v. Anderlecht in the group phases... we'd all love the top teams thrashing it out every week, but from a European and sporting stand-point having as many countries as possible represented makes sense.

The Rabo exists to really just facilitate certain countries in terms of having regular games... and is a convenient route to the Heineken cup for most of them.

But... on the flip side... with French teams starting to show an ability to buy success... it really means that you could potentially buy your way into the competition if qualification criteria where changed.

It's totally phucked up no matter what way you approach it.
 
jamespatel said:
Perhaps a prequalifying round prior to the group phases may be an answer - similar to the champions league
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Aye, had crossed my mind. Not the silver bullet to broader problems, but it'd be a step in the right direction to quench some of the bitterness regarding qualification conditions. Losers head to the Amlin.

Still think that they need to look at things like financial fair play and the number of foreigners you can field.
 
By foreigners I presume you mean non EU players. Restraint of trade otherwise I would have thought. I still think somewhere down the road this will be sorted out. Heineken cup too good a tournament to just fall apart. Lot of blood on the carpet before its resolved I fear.
 
Aye.. forgot about the old Bosman, but I suppose Unions could work around these by imposing conditions similar to England, New Zealand etc. I guess that's another can of worms though.
 
It certainly is a mess, and it's not the first time the English clubs have been here. One of the bones of contention was (and I am not sure it is now) was that the bulk of the TV money comes from France & England and therefore they felt they should have more influence in the way the competition operates (ie who qualifies).

The English premiership clubs are desperate to form a cartel in the English leagues and will not rest until they achieve that in Europe too. To my mind it is very short sighted - the European league is stronger for the continued presence of Italian teams, for example. The English premiership decides which teams qualify, the Welsh theirs, the French theirs and so on. How the other nations decide how their teams qualify is down to them as I see it.

The restrictive rulings that the Premiership put on potential new entrants, that they themselves, for the most part (e.g. primacy of tenure, minimum stadium standards), cannot meet marks them out as cartel chasers. They way they hounded London Welsh out of the Premiership last year, after fighting tooth and nail their right to be promoted was appalling behaviour in my opinion.

I'm sure this has some way to run though....

Jon

UKRob said:
Club owners are businessmen - it's not their job to provide development funding - that's down to the National bodies. Both the French and English clubs gave notice of their intention to quit the current arrangement in accordance with the agreement with European Club Rugby. Whist I agree that money is one of the motivators, I don't see that as a problem - the French and English clubs are trying to maximise their interests which is a perfectly understandable position.
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But the English premiership club get a fair handout from the RFU. The RFU's financial position is determined by England's success, commercial deals and commercial sales. A successful England, in my opinion, leads to greater attendance at domestic games, which has to be a good thing from a commercial perspective.
 
Spotted this new article this morning -

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/english-chairman-blames-heineken-cup-fiasco-french-140555828.html

'Robodirect':icon_razz:
 
jds said:
UKRob said:
Club owners are businessmen - it's not their job to provide development funding - that's down to the National bodies. Both the French and English clubs gave notice of their intention to quit the current arrangement in accordance with the agreement with European Club Rugby. Whist I agree that money is one of the motivators, I don't see that as a problem - the French and English clubs are trying to maximise their interests which is a perfectly understandable position.
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But the English premiership club get a fair handout from the RFU. The RFU's financial position is determined by England's success, commercial deals and commercial sales. A successful England, in my opinion, leads to greater attendance at domestic games, which has to be a good thing from a commercial perspective.
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Jon you have to read my response in the context of Jb's post. I don't disagree with what you say, but the clubs have no control over the distribution of revenue from Internationals - the point I was making is that the National bodies are responsible for funding grass roots rugby.

When it comes to the club's finances, they are trying to maximise their income and who can blame them? TV and sponsorship are probably far more important than gate receipts even now for many clubs. Bear in mind, there are just a handful capable of pulling in more than 10,000 paying spectators.
 
UKRob said:
jds said:
UKRob said:
Club owners are businessmen - it's not their job to provide development funding - that's down to the National bodies. Both the French and English clubs gave notice of their intention to quit the current arrangement in accordance with the agreement with European Club Rugby. Whist I agree that money is one of the motivators, I don't see that as a problem - the French and English clubs are trying to maximise their interests which is a perfectly understandable position.
Click to expand...

But the English premiership club get a fair handout from the RFU. The RFU's financial position is determined by England's success, commercial deals and commercial sales. A successful England, in my opinion, leads to greater attendance at domestic games, which has to be a good thing from a commercial perspective.
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Jon you have to read my response in the context of Jb's post. I don't disagree with what you say, but the clubs have no control over the distribution of revenue from Internationals - the point I was making is that the National bodies are responsible for funding grass roots rugby.

When it comes to the club's finances, they are trying to maximise their income and who can blame them? TV and sponsorship are probably far more important than gate receipts even now for many clubs. Bear in mind, there are just a handful capable of pulling in more than 10,000 paying spectators.
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Fair comment, Rob. It is actually one of the iniquities of how the RFU distribute their funds - the academies are attached to Premiership clubs, which means that a club like mine, Moseley, who have a long history of producing good quality youngsters lose the most promising to Worcester or Northampton at the age they should be looking to break into a championship side. But that is another matter.
 
Years ago when I played rugby I would get tickets for internationals through my club who would play in the morning so we could all get to watch the international later on that day. Now I hear of people having access to boxes through their work connections who have a passing interest in the game. With full time players now bigger and stronger and getting injured more often I lament for the 'game' I once knew. For sportsman nowadays I read entertainer, and with that comes the lure of the lucre. Has Rugby become 'just another business '? Will Rugby be featured in the economist finance section rather than a sport section or with the other entertainers such as film celebrities?
 
Seamus900ss said:
Years ago when I played rugby I would get tickets for internationals through my club who would play in the morning so we could all get to watch the international later on that day. Now I hear of people having access to boxes through their work connections who have a passing interest in the game. With full time players now bigger and stronger and getting injured more often I lament for the 'game' I once knew. For sportsman nowadays I read entertainer, and with that comes the lure of the lucre. Has Rugby become 'just another business '? Will Rugby be featured in the economist finance section rather than a sport section or with the other entertainers such as film celebrities?
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Seamus, I sympathise with your point and know exactly what you mean. For me the game at the very top level is not what I used to play. When I played although the international players were often a little bigger, the discrepancy was nowhere like it is now. Once the game went professional and the clubs became powerful the commercial aspect was always going to become increasingly prevalent.
Likewise the game may be faster today and the players more technical, but better? Nah, not for me...
 
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