Choosing & Using a Straight Razor - pt3, Hones
- Thread starter Neil Miller
- Start Date
- Messages
- 142
- Location
- Hendersonville, TN
I think the best summary regarding hones and stones I've seen, Neil.
While I have a combo Blue/Yellow coticule (glued, not natural) and a Thuringian, I've settled on a DMT 325 grit for setting bevels and removing chips, followed by a progression of Shapton diamond glass hones at 2000, 4000, 8000, and 16000. Then 50 laps on a Cro Ox pasted paddle, followed by thirty laps on canvas, thirty on linen, fifty on latigo, and fifty on horse.
My normal pre shave stropping consists of thirty laps on linen, fifty laps on latigo (I like the additional draw as opposed to horsehide).
The results have been a very smooth shaving razor with which I am well pleased.
The Shapton's are expensive, but my results have been outstanding.
While I have a combo Blue/Yellow coticule (glued, not natural) and a Thuringian, I've settled on a DMT 325 grit for setting bevels and removing chips, followed by a progression of Shapton diamond glass hones at 2000, 4000, 8000, and 16000. Then 50 laps on a Cro Ox pasted paddle, followed by thirty laps on canvas, thirty on linen, fifty on latigo, and fifty on horse.
My normal pre shave stropping consists of thirty laps on linen, fifty laps on latigo (I like the additional draw as opposed to horsehide).
The results have been a very smooth shaving razor with which I am well pleased.
The Shapton's are expensive, but my results have been outstanding.
OP
- Messages
- 672
- Thread Starter
- #19
Thanks Hawkeye5!
I must admit that I only do 10 - 20 laps on CrOx, but whatever works for the individual is right in my book! I used to like latigo more than other leathers I had tried up to then, but recently I have been doing 10 laps on a tin-oxide pasted strop (only when needed) followed by 30 on english bridle (draw is comparable to latigo) and 40 on tallow-tan (quite slick like horse, but not as stiff thanks to the tallow tanning).
I still occasionally use cotton or linen - just for variety, really, I suppose!
I agree about the shaptons - they do produce an outstanding edge. If I could only afford one of them, it would have to be the 16,000 - I think it gives quite stellar performance for what it is.
All the Best,
Neil
I must admit that I only do 10 - 20 laps on CrOx, but whatever works for the individual is right in my book! I used to like latigo more than other leathers I had tried up to then, but recently I have been doing 10 laps on a tin-oxide pasted strop (only when needed) followed by 30 on english bridle (draw is comparable to latigo) and 40 on tallow-tan (quite slick like horse, but not as stiff thanks to the tallow tanning).
I still occasionally use cotton or linen - just for variety, really, I suppose!
I agree about the shaptons - they do produce an outstanding edge. If I could only afford one of them, it would have to be the 16,000 - I think it gives quite stellar performance for what it is.
All the Best,
Neil
- Messages
- 142
- Location
- Hendersonville, TN
I should have been more clear, Neil. That process is what I do when I set a bevel or remove chips. The first thing I do with a newly purchased razor is inspect the edge with a loupe to see what is what.
For a touch up on a razor I've been using I will use the Thuringian followed by twenty or twenty five laps on a pasted paddle.
By the way, you more than likely know that our premier strop maker here in the US is also named Miller.
There are several theories about using linen, but I think I side with one of our custom razor makers, Bill Ellis. Bill feels that linen simply warms the edge making it more able to benefit from the leather. I could get the same result just sticking the blade under hot water for a bit, but I like the stropping. Actually I like everything associated with straight razor shaving.
For a touch up on a razor I've been using I will use the Thuringian followed by twenty or twenty five laps on a pasted paddle.
By the way, you more than likely know that our premier strop maker here in the US is also named Miller.
There are several theories about using linen, but I think I side with one of our custom razor makers, Bill Ellis. Bill feels that linen simply warms the edge making it more able to benefit from the leather. I could get the same result just sticking the blade under hot water for a bit, but I like the stropping. Actually I like everything associated with straight razor shaving.
OP
- Messages
- 672
- Thread Starter
- #21
I see what you mean - I should have read your post properly in the first place!
I have heard about Bill and his blades and razors - he does such excellent work it is scarcely believable! A true craftsman. I wrote to him a few times and we exchanged some ideas and experiences - he is a very nice person.
I have heard the "warming effect" of linen theory before, but I'm not sure that I subscribe to it. Leather does have a very mild abrasive effect (it can polish an edge, and in essence what is polishing but scratch removal to a very limited degree) and cotton has a more abrasive effect then leather. I have verified this using hones, strops and a microscope: straight off the hone (an extra-fine polisher) the blade edge has a very fine scratch pattern, even though it looks mirror-like to the eye. After stropping on cotton the scratch pattern is more pronounced, so the cotton is having an abrasive effect. After stropping on leather the pattern is less pronounced, ie finer, so the leather is having an abrasive effect. If one goes straight to leather from the hone the redistribution of the scratch pattern is less pronounced than if one goes straight to cotton, so the cotton is more abrasive than leather.
Of course, there are many other factors to consider - the "little fingers" theory, the burr-removal theory, the warming theory, etc, etc - "you pays your money and you takes your choice" as they say! If it works, it works, that's the main thing. And it undoubtedly does work!
Tony Miller is a great chap, by the way - we have exchanged greetings and he seems like a very sincere and very knowledgable person. I remember him coming to my defence when some dimwit on SRP blasted all other strop-makers.
Like you, I enjoy all the aspects of straight shaving - I suppose it is a ritual-like thing, and performing rituals of one sort or another seems embedded in the human psyche.
All the Best,
Neil
I have heard about Bill and his blades and razors - he does such excellent work it is scarcely believable! A true craftsman. I wrote to him a few times and we exchanged some ideas and experiences - he is a very nice person.
I have heard the "warming effect" of linen theory before, but I'm not sure that I subscribe to it. Leather does have a very mild abrasive effect (it can polish an edge, and in essence what is polishing but scratch removal to a very limited degree) and cotton has a more abrasive effect then leather. I have verified this using hones, strops and a microscope: straight off the hone (an extra-fine polisher) the blade edge has a very fine scratch pattern, even though it looks mirror-like to the eye. After stropping on cotton the scratch pattern is more pronounced, so the cotton is having an abrasive effect. After stropping on leather the pattern is less pronounced, ie finer, so the leather is having an abrasive effect. If one goes straight to leather from the hone the redistribution of the scratch pattern is less pronounced than if one goes straight to cotton, so the cotton is more abrasive than leather.
Of course, there are many other factors to consider - the "little fingers" theory, the burr-removal theory, the warming theory, etc, etc - "you pays your money and you takes your choice" as they say! If it works, it works, that's the main thing. And it undoubtedly does work!
Tony Miller is a great chap, by the way - we have exchanged greetings and he seems like a very sincere and very knowledgable person. I remember him coming to my defence when some dimwit on SRP blasted all other strop-makers.
Like you, I enjoy all the aspects of straight shaving - I suppose it is a ritual-like thing, and performing rituals of one sort or another seems embedded in the human psyche.
All the Best,
Neil
- Messages
- 449
- Location
- ::Navarra:: Spain
One of the best post about hones that I have read, I truly thank you sir
- Messages
- 46
Hello Neil,
thank you for your informative thread on various hones. Of honing stones I have only a Naniwa SS 8000. Personally I am not that impressed with it, but I haven't got any experience with others so maybe I am wrong about it. Can you directly compare Naniwa SS 8000 to Shapton glass 8000 (and 16000 also), to Thuringian and to Translucent Arkansas? Which one would you put in the first place among these by polishing capabilities, speed and versatility (eg for finishing knife edges too)? For example, in local hunters store they sell Thuringian for some 25 eur or so. Would it make "worth buying difference" if I finished a razor in Thuringian after honing it on Naniwa 8000? Clearly it would be even better to obtain both 16 k and 30 k Shapton but they are too costly for me.
ps: this is off topic, regarding Spyderco stones, I have their medium and fine ceramic radiused files, I have used predominantly medium file for more than a decade and with it you can put very sharp edge (sharpness with a "bite") on a knife however these hard ceramics are not really appropriate for razor sharpening/ honing. I was thinking of getting their ultra fine benchstone (based on superlative comments about it) which would use for touching up kitchen knives.
pps: I saw commet about linen/canvas strop, while I am at it, my reasoning for use of linen/canvas in strops is that you can apply paste to it somewhat better than could be applied to leather (especially smooth leather), linen/canvas is certainly more absorbing material. I can't see any other logical explanation as for holding it some kind of abrasive. I use chromium oxide paste on the linen side of hanging strop and so far it has worked.
Thanks,
Aleksander
thank you for your informative thread on various hones. Of honing stones I have only a Naniwa SS 8000. Personally I am not that impressed with it, but I haven't got any experience with others so maybe I am wrong about it. Can you directly compare Naniwa SS 8000 to Shapton glass 8000 (and 16000 also), to Thuringian and to Translucent Arkansas? Which one would you put in the first place among these by polishing capabilities, speed and versatility (eg for finishing knife edges too)? For example, in local hunters store they sell Thuringian for some 25 eur or so. Would it make "worth buying difference" if I finished a razor in Thuringian after honing it on Naniwa 8000? Clearly it would be even better to obtain both 16 k and 30 k Shapton but they are too costly for me.
ps: this is off topic, regarding Spyderco stones, I have their medium and fine ceramic radiused files, I have used predominantly medium file for more than a decade and with it you can put very sharp edge (sharpness with a "bite") on a knife however these hard ceramics are not really appropriate for razor sharpening/ honing. I was thinking of getting their ultra fine benchstone (based on superlative comments about it) which would use for touching up kitchen knives.
pps: I saw commet about linen/canvas strop, while I am at it, my reasoning for use of linen/canvas in strops is that you can apply paste to it somewhat better than could be applied to leather (especially smooth leather), linen/canvas is certainly more absorbing material. I can't see any other logical explanation as for holding it some kind of abrasive. I use chromium oxide paste on the linen side of hanging strop and so far it has worked.
Thanks,
Aleksander
- Messages
- 3,266
- Location
- West Yorkshire
Just to address one of your points, Aleksander, a Thuringer should definitely improve an 8k edge. Oh, and re the Spyderco 10k bench hone: I had a good experience of that, but the edges produced are a bit aggressive. At a micro level I assume that means a deep scratch pattern, judging by the way the edge catches a hanging hair - for my taste such an edge needs some calming down before it's a pleasure to shave with. For kitchen knives it's utterly, utterly excessive in my opinion.
- Messages
- 46
Arrowhead said:
excessive in what? there is no such thing as an excessive sharpness...it's not like a knife can be too sharp...at least not for my taste
- Messages
- 3,266
- Location
- West Yorkshire
If your knife is tempered to Rc 63 or so, I'll grudgingly concede half a point. Knives aren't razors, and slicing cutting actions benefit from a degree of roughness at the edge; sashimi knives are an exception.
OP
- Messages
- 672
- Thread Starter
- #27
Hyperborean said:
Hello Aleksander and thanks!
The Naniwa SS 8000 is a decent stone - I have had one and for its price I don't think you can complain much about it. It is fast, easy to lap, and leaves a decent edge from which to progress on to the next stone. What more could you want? The shapton GS is harder, harder to lap, and leaves an equally good edge, but costs more. I currently use one - although I have to lap it quite frequently (which is the case with all the Naniwas SS and Shapton GS series which are prone to dimensional changes) I think it will last a very long time, even though it is thin. Longer than a Naniwa SS certainly, which is a much softer stone.
The Shapton GS 1600 is an excellent stone. Some people report it leaving a harsh edge, but a trace of slurry on the stone (not recommended by shapton, BTW) or a good stropping on linen and leather or a few strokes on chrome oxide soon smooth it out. Not that I have ever felt a harsh edge coming off that particular hone - maybe my skin is not so delicate?!
To address your query re: the thuringian and arkansas stones, these of course are much slower than the previously mentioned hones. The arkansas is particularly slow, but the translucent ones that I have used leave a very good edge indeed. Unlike a slurried thuringian they will not remove even a small amount of metal - just enough at a micro-level to qualify as a slow polisher. Obviously, any comparison of the man-made hones to the two latter natural ones would be subjective, and - as natural stones differ so much and can be either good or bad or anything in between for our particular purposes (shaving, not knife wielding) for any one type of natural stone, a direct comparison could also be pretty meaningless.
If you compare finishing stones, then you should seek what qualities appeal to you. The ceramics/synthetics will be fast with a keen edge, decent thuringians will not attain the sharpness level of top-line ceramics/synthetics, will require more laps (and a degree of technique) and will have a smoother edge. A decent translucent arkansas will give a very keen edge, but shares the same properties of other novaculites - it will be very keen and crisp but it will not be so smooth as a thuringian.
As for thuringians, there are many types. Possibly the best ones are vintage ones, of which the Escher was a branded type, and even these fall into different categories broadly indicated by colour - dark grey/blue are fast cutters (according to their type, not other stones - I'm using it as a relative term) but the lighter colours give a more refined edge and a little less cutting speed. Modern thuringians seem to fall into three categories according to perceived grit levels (used as a convenience - you can't really determine an actual grit level for a natural stone): around 5000 grit, around 8000 grit and higher. Unless you know which one you are getting leave them alone - you could, for instance, be taking a retrograde step by using a sub-8000 thuringian after a known man-made 8k. The less pure thuringians also often have a scratchy quality, which is not pleasant. Inclusions that give rise to this scratchiness should not be confused with the other, more common glittery soft inclusions, which have no impact on the edge. Figuring out which are hard inclusions and which are soft ones is difficult, and usually only determined in use - by which time it is too late if they are not benign.
But you may not need another stone in excess of 8000 grit. That grit should give you a decent shaving edge. With chrome-oxide on a strop or paddle it could be all you will ever need (need, as opposed to want!). If it you can't get a shaving edge, you aren't using the stone to its best capabilities.
The UF Spyderco is a great stone - not just for knives - indeed, it was originally envisioned to be a modern replacement for a barber hone by the maker. It shares the same characteristics regarding the edge it leaves as a lot of the higher-grade barber hones - harshness - and to get it to leave a smoother edge requires some finesse or the help of chrome oxide. Which, BTW, can be applied directly to the UF itself if you like to experiment. As far as I can recall, the hone is not that cheap, either.
With regard to strops - for my own purposes, linen is best left unpasted as it is abrasive enough on its own for my needs. I do occasionally use powders, but these are applied to leather - they sink too far into canvas and linen unless the substrate has been prepared by hard-soaping it or some other method. The further an abrasive sinks into a substrate, and the more 'cushioned' that substrate is, the less the cutting effect of the abrasive becomes. A thin dusting of powder adheres very well to leather and once the small pores are filled it is quite a good support. Balsa and Hard Wool Felt are also good. However I would use linen/canvas as my last choice.
I may be wrong, but you seem to be seeing the material component just as a means of holding an abrasive, which it quite clearly is not. There are arguments that its use is to clean the edge of the razor and prevent debris like metal particles embedding in the leather, to warm the blade up (a lot of old barber manuals make a big point of this - some even instruct the learner to warm the razor in hot water prior to honing) or to realign the microfin on the bevel. I use it with no dressing applied prior to leather because - for me - it works best like that. I prefer paddles for dressings, but that's just my preference.
As for knife edges I agree with Arrowhead. For me anything over 4k - 5k is unnecessary and leaves an attenuated edge that is too fragile to serve long, the Spyderco UF is a bit aggressive (but see above), and the 'bite' you feel is due to the tooth-like serrations left at the bevel by a hard abrasive.
Regards,
Neil
- Messages
- 46
Arrowhead said:
I don't see any objection honing Victorinox "butchers" knife on Naniwa SS 8 k...it just falls through a tomato and holds sharp edge for surprisingly long time considering that is made from relatively lower hardness steel (X50CrMoV15)
Yes, "roughness" of the edge is much stated argument for not finishing the knife blade on high grit stones...but if you have a thin edge (like a kitchen knife) do you need a "rough" finish on the edge to improve its cutting capability with those "micro-serrations"? I agree knife blades with relativey thick and obtuse edge bevels (american knives) can benefit from rougher finish leaving on "micro-serrations"...but polished edge bevel on a knife which has a thin, acute edge made from fine grained steel can only mean more durable edge than if left in coarser condition (micro-serration can break off more quickly and leave a duller edge as a result) ...of course it also depends on type of steel (fine or coarse grained) etc
- Messages
- 46
Hello Neil,
thank you for taking time to write such detailed reply. What you said about Naniwa 8k...hm if this stone is fast than it's hard to imagine how slow those natural stone are
, at least on razors. I noticed it's noticeable faster working on knife blades (though I still prefer spyderco ceramic for finishing edge), probably because of softer steel I guess . The reason I am not impressed with it at razor honing because I have to press the razor blade fairly hard on the Naniwa stone to get it working (ps I guess the new steel of Thiers Issard is that hard, approx 65 HRC). Otherwise I don't have a problem with it, it leaves near mirror finish, almost without scratches. Before I had paddle strop and TI diamond paste I progressed on CrOX and it was decent shave. However I think progressing on TI paste leaves a keener edge...not as mirror or shiny as Naniwa SS 8000 which I find kind of strange...
You are right about asking myself what qualities in stones appeal to me. Fast action and keen edges. The keener the better. I suppose that's why I like that "medium" spyderco ceramic so much (though I don't really like their "fine" ceramic). That's why if I bought another honing stone it would be either Spyderco UF or maybe hard translucent Arkansas. My main concern with Spyderco UF is its lack of "perfect" flatness...if you get less than "perfect" flat Naniwa or Shapton it's not a problem to lap it true with DMT diasharp plate, but spyderco ceramics are something else...
Regarding strops, I pasted the linen part of my hanging DOVO strop because at the time I only had that one strop, and if I had another strop I wouldn't have done it...but so far it has worked... I am thinking of making improvised paddle strop with a smooth leather surface for CrOx paste application...I am interested to see whether this will provide even finer edge. Explanation about linen/canvas for "warming up" the razor is implausible in my opinion, you can warm up the razor on leather surface as well and to clean the leather surface on a strop one can use his palm prior to each stropping session.
thank you for taking time to write such detailed reply. What you said about Naniwa 8k...hm if this stone is fast than it's hard to imagine how slow those natural stone are
, at least on razors. I noticed it's noticeable faster working on knife blades (though I still prefer spyderco ceramic for finishing edge), probably because of softer steel I guess . The reason I am not impressed with it at razor honing because I have to press the razor blade fairly hard on the Naniwa stone to get it working (ps I guess the new steel of Thiers Issard is that hard, approx 65 HRC). Otherwise I don't have a problem with it, it leaves near mirror finish, almost without scratches. Before I had paddle strop and TI diamond paste I progressed on CrOX and it was decent shave. However I think progressing on TI paste leaves a keener edge...not as mirror or shiny as Naniwa SS 8000 which I find kind of strange...You are right about asking myself what qualities in stones appeal to me. Fast action and keen edges. The keener the better. I suppose that's why I like that "medium" spyderco ceramic so much (though I don't really like their "fine" ceramic). That's why if I bought another honing stone it would be either Spyderco UF or maybe hard translucent Arkansas. My main concern with Spyderco UF is its lack of "perfect" flatness...if you get less than "perfect" flat Naniwa or Shapton it's not a problem to lap it true with DMT diasharp plate, but spyderco ceramics are something else...
Regarding strops, I pasted the linen part of my hanging DOVO strop because at the time I only had that one strop, and if I had another strop I wouldn't have done it...but so far it has worked... I am thinking of making improvised paddle strop with a smooth leather surface for CrOx paste application...I am interested to see whether this will provide even finer edge. Explanation about linen/canvas for "warming up" the razor is implausible in my opinion, you can warm up the razor on leather surface as well and to clean the leather surface on a strop one can use his palm prior to each stropping session.
OP
- Messages
- 672
- Thread Starter
- #30
Thanks Hyperborean.
To address the points you raised:
Believe me, natural stones like novaculites can be agonisingly slow - compare 10 - 20 laps on a synthetic shapton 16000 to 1000 laps on a fine, hard charnley forest ...!
If you have to press a razor fairly hard on a hone, then that hone is not for that razor. Pressing hard is counter to what is required. You shouldn't have to press at all - just enough to stop the bevel from aquaplaning, not much more than the weight of the razor itself.
I have only had three Spyderco UFs - one side of each was perfectly flat, the other side showed milling marks. My primary use for buying them was after reading an article which stated you can use them as a variable grit hone using various diamont sprays on them, and in honing they became even flatter, which is what I found. I didn't like them enough to keep them, but they aren't bad stones at all and they offer a lot of potential for people willing to experiment - I just need to get the job done as fast as possible, like you!
There isn't a great deal of difference in lapping a translucent arkansas compared to a spyderco UF - you just have to use appropriate materials. No sense in sacrificing a perfectly good diamond plate on either in my opinion.
For me, powders work better on leather than pastes. Some pastes ball-up and I don't like that.
I agree with you about the warming theory - its not mine - I think it is solely the cleaning action and the slightly more aggressive nature of linen that does the trick (yes, linen is more abrasive than leather, and some leathers are more abrasive than other leathers, even though we are talking more of a polishing action than a metal removal action they are both the same ting to greater or lesser extents).
Regards,
Neil
To address the points you raised:
Believe me, natural stones like novaculites can be agonisingly slow - compare 10 - 20 laps on a synthetic shapton 16000 to 1000 laps on a fine, hard charnley forest ...!
If you have to press a razor fairly hard on a hone, then that hone is not for that razor. Pressing hard is counter to what is required. You shouldn't have to press at all - just enough to stop the bevel from aquaplaning, not much more than the weight of the razor itself.
I have only had three Spyderco UFs - one side of each was perfectly flat, the other side showed milling marks. My primary use for buying them was after reading an article which stated you can use them as a variable grit hone using various diamont sprays on them, and in honing they became even flatter, which is what I found. I didn't like them enough to keep them, but they aren't bad stones at all and they offer a lot of potential for people willing to experiment - I just need to get the job done as fast as possible, like you!
There isn't a great deal of difference in lapping a translucent arkansas compared to a spyderco UF - you just have to use appropriate materials. No sense in sacrificing a perfectly good diamond plate on either in my opinion.
For me, powders work better on leather than pastes. Some pastes ball-up and I don't like that.
I agree with you about the warming theory - its not mine - I think it is solely the cleaning action and the slightly more aggressive nature of linen that does the trick (yes, linen is more abrasive than leather, and some leathers are more abrasive than other leathers, even though we are talking more of a polishing action than a metal removal action they are both the same ting to greater or lesser extents).
Regards,
Neil
- Messages
- 46
No Neil, thank you for your information on various hones . I have Thiers Issard (Le Dandy) razor. I have honed it only about three-four times since I have bought it in 2009, and once I did it just for test (I bought King 4 k and wanted to see if it makes a difference going to 8 k from 4k instead of 3 k). I bought Naniwa SS after reading relative good comments about it, how Naniwas are suitable for razors. And now I find out that is not appropriate :roll: ...just kidding . Anyway, I use trailing motion when honing. When I used edge leading motion I didn't press at all but the honing action was too slow . For me trailing motion when honing works better and you can even apply some moderate pressure.
. I have Thiers Issard (Le Dandy) razor. I have honed it only about three-four times since I have bought it in 2009, and once I did it just for test (I bought King 4 k and wanted to see if it makes a difference going to 8 k from 4k instead of 3 k). I bought Naniwa SS after reading relative good comments about it, how Naniwas are suitable for razors. And now I find out that is not appropriate :roll: ...just kidding . Anyway, I use trailing motion when honing. When I used edge leading motion I didn't press at all but the honing action was too slow . For me trailing motion when honing works better and you can even apply some moderate pressure.
OP
- Messages
- 672
- Thread Starter
- #32
I don't know about naniwas ss hones being unsuitable for razors, but I have only honed a few thousand razors on these hones - maybe I'll find one with some unique alloy of steel that doesn't like bing abraded by them one day. I still maintain that only a stiff grind can take any edge pressure, and then again only at the bevel setting stage, unless you like wire edges.
Regards,
Neil
Regards,
Neil