against the grain - cause of bald patches?

[shavecraft]

Hi all

Sorry if this preamble is a little long-winded, but I thought a bit of background may increase the chances of helpful answers.

Been DE shaving since June last year, prompted by disenchantment with the cost of multi-blade cartridges, and skepticism of the need for more and more blades. Also my Quattro seemed to give me some irritation issues if used for a daily shave that I didn't get from my old, long since binned, Sensor. It was only after I started to research how to properly use a DE (yep, Mantic and Geo's videos, browsing forums like this) that I realised that I might also get a better shave, so that wasn't the initial motivation.

Only used a couple of razors so far. The Wilkinson Sword Classic, which I find too mild, and the EJ89L that is presently my everyday razor. Have a couple of brushes (EJ Pure Badger, Vulfix 404 bristle-badger). Mainly been using soaps, creams and blades that are readily available on the UK high street, though I will be getting a sample of blades with a sharper reputation. Favourite blade (in the EJ) I've used so far is the Wilkinson Sword (though I've only tried Derby, Dorco 301, Israeli Personna and Wilkies so far).

Up to now I've concentrated on getting my technique right rather than acquiring lots of different hardware and software. I had to make the adjustment from cart technique to DE, and went through my share of bad and so so shaves in the process. Technique improved initially pretty quickly, more gradually in terms of getting a consistently good shave (close, comfortable, little or no irritation) but (that's) where I'm now at. Now at the stage where I want to try a more aggressive implement than the EJ and will be getting myself something along those lines before long.

I'd estimate my beard is heavier than average, probably about a 7 or 8 on a scale of 1-10 (10 being Desperate Dan facial hirsuteness). I usually do a 3 pass shave on my face (WTG, XTG, XTG-ATG [obliquely ATG]), but am finding that on my neck I'm having to do more like 4 – 5 passes (WTG, XTG-ATG, ATG) to get acceptably smooth. Hair growth on my neck is N-S from under chin to adam's apple, fanning out down-sideways (towards ears) on both sides of my neck (neck beard growth rather like the shape of a partly open ladys' fan held upside down if that makes sense). The hair lies fairly flat to my skin. This means that in doing a south-north pass on my neck I shave pretty much directly ATG from adams apple up to chin, and more XTG-ATG to either side. Technique is such that I can generally avoid irritation now, but when I did (and occasionally still do) get it the area that will get irritated is mostly that between adam's apple and chin where I shave pretty much directly ATG. If I only shave XTG-ATG I can never get smooth enough there, so have persisted with directly ATG, with my technique now such that I largely avoid irritation there. I only shaved WTG or mildly XTG when I used a cart - the all off in 1 approach (I knew no better!), plus touch up if i had missed a bit.

Over the past few months I have noticed that there are small patches in that area (adam's apple to chin) where the growth seems to have thinned out. This seems a bit weird and I'm pretty sure it wasn't there before I started to DE shave. Granted, I didn't pay as much attention to my beard back then! Can anybody offer an informed opinion on whether shaving directly ATG (especially for a heavier than average beard that grows pretty flat to the skin) can cause this? Could shaving directly ATG actually pull hairs out (particularly in the early days when I had newbie technique)? I certainly don't want to contribute to it getting worse (I like to grow a beard now and then).

Sorry for the novel (!) and thanks for any advice offered.

 

[Bechet]

52 years of ATG with DE for the first umpteen years followed by cartridges in their evolution and finishing with a few weeks of DE again have not resulted in bald patches for me.

However, washing my scalp daily has resulted in terrible hair loss these last few years. Maybe I use the wrong shampoo?

 

[chrisbell]

I've never heard of going ATG causing bald patches, but I'm concerned about you going ATG that much so soon in your DE shaving experience. When you say you can't get your neck smooth enough without going directly ATG, what is "smooth enough" to you? You're unlikely to get a BBS shave without either a more aggressive razor and blades or more experience to refine your technique. By the sounds of it, the only blades you've tried that fall into the "seriously sharp" category are the Personnas - once you get an Astra SP, Gillette Yellow or Feather in the DE89 you may find you get closer to BBS with fewer passes, but, in geeral, I'd suggest shooting for comfortable, presentable shaves, using different kit in future and gradual technique improvement to get you smoother.

 

[Canuck]

I think if anything, your DE shaving ritual might have eliminated unsightly ingrowns so the area of skin may be clearer, I found that some of my "rougher" looking follicles dissapeared and it turned out they were ingrown hairs.

DE shaving won't pull hairs out, no. Personally I think you are just taking more interest in the close up look of the face and noticing things you never did before. Now you're better aquainted with that mug, you'll notice if more are disappearing, so if they are, get down the quack.

 

[Helveticum]

You're unlikely to get a BBS shave without either a more aggressive razor and blades or more experience to refine your technique.

I was getting BBS with EJ, derby and poor technique - a couple of weeks into this. And yes, ATG all the way. Again - yes, there was an irritation, but it was bearable, compared to what I used to get from cartridges. Really don't get all of these concerns about people going ATG. Just let 'em roll, as long as they are happy with the results.

 

[Dr Rick]

Amen to that, brother. It's shaving, not lion-taming.

 

[antdad]

Shaving ATG won't cause baldness but it may lead you to over shaving an area...if you can do it without irritation fine, if you can't then stick to just adding an extra XTG pass instead, it should be plenty close enough.

 

[Johnus]

52 years of ATG with DE for the first umpteen years followed by cartridges in their evolution and finishing with a few weeks of DE again have not resulted in bald patches for me.

However, washing my scalp daily has resulted in terrible hair loss these last few years. Maybe I use the wrong shampoo?

Off the topic of beards.. Hair care. One point in my life I had money and spent a fair amount on hair cuts, perms, color... And was told by some knowledgable practitioners not to use Shampoo on my hair every day. Washing was fine but to alternate between a cream rinse for 3 days then 1 day of shampoo and then the cream rinse. Back to the neighborhood barber but still alternate the cream rinse and shampoo schedule.

 

[chrisbell]

You're unlikely to get a BBS shave without either a more aggressive razor and blades or more experience to refine your technique.

I was getting BBS with EJ, derby and poor technique - a couple of weeks into this. And yes, ATG all the way. Again - yes, there was an irritation, but it was bearable, compared to what I used to get from cartridges. Really don't get all of these concerns about people going ATG. Just let 'em roll, as long as they are happy with the results.

Fair enough, Helv - what I was trying to explain (badly) was that the OP seems to be giving his face quite a working-over given his lack of experience so far in pursuit of BBS. From personal experience, my shaves were still improving in terms of irritation-free closeness several months in - way after I thought I'd nailed my technique. Indeed, I'm still learning about my face's peculiarities and foibles even now. I therefore suggested that he would probably find that he'll get closer to BBS once he's been doing this for longer, plus he my well find that there are many better blades for him out there than the limited number of types he's tried so far - allied to the fact that the DE89 is a fairly mild razor.

 

[Bechet]

I cannot fathom the angst against ATG shaving - providing one uses the right tools.
Using an EJ and a mild to medium sharp/aggressive blade I can shave ATG without harm. However, as soon as I put a very sharp/agressive blade into even an EJ, I get irritation with XTG and weepers ATG, no matter how light my touch.

Of head baldness: I once listened to a Sydney barber opine that baldness is caused by plonking the shampoo on the tops of our heads, premised on the fact that we don't go bald at the back and sides.

However - my father and my brother were both completely bald in their early twenties whereas I still have 'lots' of hair mid-sixties so either I am doing well or my father isn't my father! (but my son is his spitting image).

 

[JohnnyO]

Having commenced hair loss in my twenties I have always consoled myself with the thought of my high testosterone levels being the cause.
I'll appreciate those who are better informed being charitable enough to not correct me !

Johnny (look at the size of that bald patch) O. \:blush:

 

[joe mcclaine]

I'm with you Johnny.

High level of testosterone and my comically large testicles are to blame for me being bald.

 

[antdad]

I cannot fathom the angst against ATG shaving - providing one uses the right tools.
Using an EJ and a mild to medium sharp/aggressive blade I can shave ATG without harm. However, as soon as I put a very sharp/agressive blade into even an EJ, I get irritation with XTG and weepers ATG, no matter how light my touch.

Well then, I'd say your lather isn't up to scratch and providing enough cushion.

God forbid men have been duped for decades that only a BBS shave is acceptable and at a terrible cost. Why? So you can feel like baby or stroke your smooth chin for a few hours? There isn't any angst against shaving ATG there's just less emphasis on it being an aspirational aim because any hack can achieve it and then pay for it later.

After a few years on this forum most problems from inexperienced shavers are usually alleviated by suggesting they do not over shave by including an ATG pass rather than say just improving ones tools, technique or prep etc. If they want to include it later when they have a little more experience fine but to suggest it's just down to the tools you use is simplistic in the extreme.

 

[shavecraft]

I think if anything, your DE shaving ritual might have eliminated unsightly ingrowns so the area of skin may be clearer, I found that some of my "rougher" looking follicles dissapeared and it turned out they were ingrown hairs.

DE shaving won't pull hairs out, no. Personally I think you are just taking more interest in the close up look of the face and noticing things you never did before. Now you're better aquainted with that mug, you'll notice if more are disappearing, so if they are, get down the quack.

I had small areas with rougher looking follicles (if you looked closely) in my moustache and chin area before I moved to DE. I never gave them much thought other than assuming it must be something to do with getting older. They've gone since I started DE shaving. So they must've been induced by something to do with the Quattro carts I used before making the switch. Thinking back I don't think I had them when I used a twin blade Sensor.

 

[shavecraft]

In reply to the various thoughts expressed. I usually shoot for DFS for my daily shave, BBS only if the urge takes me or for a special occasion. So over most of my face and neck this means that the most aggressive pass is XTG-ATG (more than across, not quite directly against). This seems to work fine for a DFS. The reason for going directly ATG from adam's apple up to chin is that if I don't, because the growth is fairly flat to the skin, I don't even get DFS - spiky patches get left behind - which I just find, well, annoying in a "that's not good enough" kinda way. This was always a part of my neck I couldn't get smooth when I used a cart as, after trying it once or twice with very rashy results in my youth, I avoided going ATG there. Going directly ATG (with a further ATG touch up to get stubborn bits) means that area ends up the only truly BBS bit. This means that, yes, if anything, it ends up over-shaved compared to the rest of my face.

Perhaps there are thinner patches of growth there that I just didn't notice before, perhaps what I'm seeing as small patches of thinner growth is just the fact that the closer shave there means the hair takes longer to grow back through compared to the rest of the face. If I recall correctly, the last time I went a week without shaving these areas did seem to more or less fill in. Perhaps it's the fact that, now in my late 30s, my muzzle is starting to get a little grizzled in the odd place and the grey bits just aren't as easily visible after only a day or 2s growth (I have blonde hair). Perhaps I'm paying an unhealthy amount of attention to my beard in pursuit of fine tuning my technique! Perhaps I'm losing my marbles to shaving obsession! :s Perhaps a combination of all of these factors!

It's reassuring to know that the consensus is that it's not an issue of shaving ATG somehow pulling hairs out. I think I'll just keep an eye on it and see if I can get a better DFS in that area without going directly ATG by pairing the EJ with some sharper blades and if that doesn't work getting a more aggressive razor and seeing if that makes the difference. Trial n error seems to be such a large part of reaching that DE shaving nirvana. Is going down the SE or straight road a way of avoiding this necessity?

---

52 years of ATG with DE for the first umpteen years followed by cartridges in their evolution and finishing with a few weeks of DE again have not resulted in bald patches for me.

However, washing my scalp daily has resulted in terrible hair loss these last few years. Maybe I use the wrong shampoo?

Off the topic of beards.. Hair care. One point in my life I had money and spent a fair amount on hair cuts, perms, color... And was told by some knowledgable practitioners not to use Shampoo on my hair every day. Washing was fine but to alternate between a cream rinse for 3 days then 1 day of shampoo and then the cream rinse. Back to the neighborhood barber but still alternate the cream rinse and shampoo schedule.

You've intrigued me - what do you mean by cream rinse? Do you mean using conditioner without shampooing first? I've never heard of a cream rinse. I'm not bald but, despite always having had a high forehead, there's no denying my hairline is in reverse. No doubt genetic as my grandad on my mother's side was bald on top.

 

[django]

I've had this happen to me!

I only use a straight so its not to do with DE shaving.
It's not ingrowns, trust me I've had more than my fair share of them, that's why I became a straight shaver!
It's not to do with the prep, lather etc.

The area it has happened is the halfway point between the top of my adam's apple and bottom of chin. I do a full stroke from these two points ATG and the point it happens is where I have to adjust the angle of the blade because the contour of my neck becomes steeper. It would be fair to say that I could get it wrong sometimes, not enough to cut me but it would be shaving closer than the rest of the stroke.
So it does look like it is something to do with going ATG but it just doesn't ring true. I've never heard anyone say "don't shave too close, you'll go bald!"!!

I too go for BBS, I don't suffer for it in any way.
It has happened twice and gone away and I had no redness or irritation which you would expect with an error in technique.
I just put it down to age until I saw this thread so thought I should let you know you are not alone!