Thoughts on Aggressiveness

Dansco · Friday September 28, 2018

J 5 said:
And yet, what many mild razor enthusiasts miss is the problematic design issues with negative blade exposure.

If you use perfect technique (ie, no pressure), while employing the shave angle the razor is designed for, it is actually not possible for the blade to touch the skin. Instead, the rigidity and sharpness of the blade merely slices through the extending hairs.

Here's a perfect example from Tatara Razors:

View attachment 38601

The Tatara Masamune above is designed to shave within .13 mm of your skin. So, if you are BBS after using it, then you had to have used pressure, pulled out hairs, or you have thin hairs and a sparse beard that merely "feels" smoother to the skin, instead of actually getting to the skin.

Several versions of Techs, Karve plates AA, A, B, and C, the Razorock Mamba, and the Tatara above all have negative blade exposure.

But what if you have sensitive skin, curly hairs, a proclivity to ingrown hairs, thick beard growth, with a mixture of thick hairs and wiry think hairs, like I do?

It is foolhardy to say "YMMV" and every razor is different and your face is different, and then assume that certain razors will shave certain faces equally well with an equal number of passes "if you have good technique and prep".

That is wrong.

For me, my face feels pretty darn smooth some 10+ hours after shaving with the R41, H, GC 84, and even with the less comfortable Dart before returning that.

On the other hand, I noticed more growth and stubble on my face after only a few hours, when I shave with some Techs, my Slim on 2, Ming Shi on 1.

Again, YMMV.

Happy shaves.

I'm not going to lie, this is new information to me. I have heard people talk of negative blade exposure before, but assumed it was such tiny measurements that it made no difference. And being fair, .013 of a millimetre is fairly small.

Still, I made a statement originally which needs clarifying above... any razorwhich has positive blade exposure should shave exactly the same in the end. Both the cap and the bar shouldn't be on your face at the same time so gap matters not in these instances.

However, any razor with a significant negative exposure would theoretically not shave well as others. I can see how that could lead to stubble reappearing slightly sooner. I can't imagine there's much in it though.

Negative blade exposure does seem like a massive design flaw in my eyes. At least 0.00 should be mandatory on any razor, or as you said above, you either need to accept sub standard shaves or apply pressure while shaving??

Boru62 · Friday September 28, 2018

Dansco said:
It's a good point well made. To you, a shave is more comfortable in two passes than three. Has nothing to do with the razors ability to shave - they all work.

It's this that we need more of - misinformation guiding people to try new razors and blades when their shaves aren't up to scratch is the problem I have

Yes they all work but they have to work on variable mediums, and when my skin was more taut and my stubble less grey, the tech was all I needed.
If I ever had to choose a daily driver, nowadays, it would be an SE but if it had to be a DE, something like a Picollo or a Karve D.

Satanfriendly · Sunday September 30, 2018

TobyC said:
Blade exposure beyond the edge of the cap matters more than air space under the blade edge, the Fatip and the OLD type have pretty close to zero gap.

Indeed and I see the world from the same (shaving) angle. Between that and how firmly the blade is actually held in place. This is where I see big benefits in SE. Less flex across the entire blade.

I guess the straight razor community must be having a good laugh at this thread.

Dansco · Sunday September 30, 2018

Satanfriendly said:
Indeed and I see the world from the same (shaving) angle. Between that and how firmly the blade is actually held in place. This is where I see big benefits in SE. Less flex across the entire blade.

I guess the straight razor community must be having a good laugh at this thread.

It's not a good laugh, per se, but there shouldn't really be any razors which are inherently too aggressive. When you can run a blade across your face with no guard you don't really take any notice anymore while using a DE. They can all do a good job

For what it's worth I still have to use the same number of passes with a straight as a DE or SE. Just because they have no guard, doesn't make them cut better. Great shave in 2 passes but 3 needed for true BBS

Boru62 · Monday October 1, 2018

TobyC said:
Blade exposure beyond the edge of the cap matters more than air space under the blade edge, the Fatip and the OLD type have pretty close to zero gap.

I don't get this.
Adjustable razors work by changing the blade gap not the exposure.
The 1914 has huge exposure and is less aggressive than both the '24 and the Streamline.
I'm sure exposure plays a part but blade gap is as much, if not more, a determining factor.

Bogeyman · Monday October 1, 2018

When I began to just merely shave and quit fretting over the quest for the elusive BBS I became much happier. Shaves became more relaxing and life got better.

Boru62 · Monday October 1, 2018

Bogeyman said:
When I began to just merely shave and quit fretting over the quest for the elusive BBS I became much happier. Shaves became more relaxing and life got better.

Having dodgy skin I never chased BBS but I understand where you're coming from.

TobyC · Monday October 1, 2018

Boru62 said:
I don't get this.
Adjustable razors work by changing the blade gap not the exposure.
The 1914 has huge exposure and is less aggressive than both the '24 and the Streamline.
I'm sure exposure plays a part but blade gap is as much, if not more, a determining factor.

Smoothest shaves come from a very shallow blade angle, the cap and the blade are on my face with minimal contact with the guard. The thickness and placement of the cap in relation to the blade edge governs aggressiveness and smoothness. Adjustables work only with a larger blade angle, and to take full advantage of higher settings, you have to rotate the handle closer to your face, or just continue to use the cap and blade edge on your face and forget about the guard. I think you should always forget about the guard anyway,... you know you can ride a bike when the training wheels no longer touch the ground,... yes, the guard is like training wheels.

chris.hale · Monday October 1, 2018

There's a few ways to increase the aggression it's down to the entire geometry of the head which is why comparing only one factor (usually gap) between different razors is pointless.

TobyC · Monday October 1, 2018

chris.hale said:
There's a few ways to increase the aggression it's down to the entire geometry of the head which is why comparing only one factor (usually gap) between different razors is pointless.

View attachment 38640

Using the "Decreased cap width" image, and lifting the handle so that only the cap and blade are on your face, will give you the shallowest blade angle, and the best control of the perceived aggression. The guard (base) will be irrelevant, and only there as a "safety guard".

.

Boru62 · Monday October 1, 2018

TobyC said:
Smoothest shaves come from a very shallow blade angle, the cap and the blade are on my face with minimal contact with the guard. The thickness and placement of the cap in relation to the blade edge governs aggressiveness and smoothness. Adjustables work only with a larger blade angle, and to take full advantage of higher settings, you have to rotate the handle closer to your face, or just continue to use the cap and blade edge on your face and forget about the guard. I think you should always forget about the guard anyway,... you know you can ride a bike when the training wheels no longer touch the ground,... yes, the guard is like training wheels.

So, in fewer words, you ride the cap and the curvature of the cap would also play its part in determining the aggression.
This still doesn't explain an SE with more blade exposure shaves less aggressively than another SE.

TobyC · Monday October 1, 2018

Boru62 said:
So, in fewer words, you ride the cap and the curvature of the cap would also play its part in determining the aggression.
This still doesn't explain an SE with more blade exposure shaves less aggressively than another SE.

I really can't help you there,... most Ever-Ready, GEM, Star, etc. razors feel the same to my face, just different in the hand.

Boru62 · Monday October 1, 2018

TobyC said:
I really can't help you there,... most Ever-Ready, GEM, Star, etc. razors feel the same to my face, just different in the hand.

Really?
The 1914 is less aggressive than the 1924 and the Streamline yet has greater blade exposure, hence my confusion with your statement.

Bogeyman · Tuesday October 2, 2018

Oft times it is hard to objectively measure that which is subjectively interpreted, e.g., how a car "handles", a woman's kiss, the best beer, etc.

Thoughts on Aggressiveness

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