Is a straight that much sharper?

From what I have heard/read/been told, DE baldes are certainly sharper. I guess that a straight can be made as sharp, probably with an ultra-fine hone, diamond pastes, etc, but most straight users do not like shaving with such sharp blades. For instance, a blade honed and then refined on a pasted strop with 0.25 micon diamond spray is very sharp indeed, but the shave it gives is often harsh, irritates the skin and gives rise to 'weepers' - not a comfortable experience. Most people who use the 0.25 micron diamond spray then use chrome oxide - coarser than diamond at 0.5 micron - to smooth the edge of the blade prior to shaving. Seems a retrograde step, doesn't it?!

Getting the blade very sharp ultimately means that the bevel profile is very attenuated - thin - and thin steel is dented, torn and pushed aside by harsh bristles. Photos taken with an electron microscope of a straight honed and stroped show a pretty regular edge. Photos of the same blade post shaving show a deformed, bent and rolled-over profile - the strop corrects this ready for the next shave. You can extrapolate a number of things from this such as: fine bristles will not deform the edge as much, a more robust edge will not suffer as much deformation and that with harsh bristles stropping mid-shave may be necessary. To further complicate matters, straights are made with a number of steels, all with different characteristics. The old sheffield steels for example are softer than modern steels - they are said to give a very smoothe shave (they do, in my case) but being a softer formulation they must be adversely affected by harsh bristles. So - meet the wedge - a razor with no hollow grinding at all, triangular in section and offering a very robust edge - ideal for harsh bristles. At the other end of the spectrum are the hollowest grinds possible - the extra-hollow ground or "singing" blades. The metal is tough and resilient and can literally be plucked to make a musical note - and bounce right back to where it was.

No one solution exists. Happily, most folk are catered for by the normal blades, others may have to do a bit of experimenting, some may never take to straights at all. I guess its a case of "horses for courses" and a lot of straight shavers will resort to DEs, etc, when pressed for time or travelling or after a heavy night on the razzle. The one thing straights do offer, which is hard to quantify, is a link to the past. Using something that our fathers used, and their fathers before them and so on has a feeling of "rightness" about it for many. They were proper men then, after all. It's a lot like the japanese tea ritual - the ritual can absorb you and over-ride everything else, but there is nothing wrong with that. Man is an animal of habit, and ritual motions like lathering, stropping and honing are strangely satisfying for a lot of us. But straights did fall out of favour. Even the people who were brought up to use them abandoned them, mostly, otherwise the disposable razor would never have got off the ground. Saying that one is better than the other is pointless - some people love old cameras others proclaim digicams, some love classic cars others want a plug-in electric one, some people love antiques, others want Ikea. You just have to find what feels right for you, is what I'm trying to say.

To get back to your last post, Zig-Zag, I don't think it is sharpness, although you have a good chance of getting the sharpness you want/need within certain parameters, something that other forms of shaving do not offer or aren't so adaptable at doing. Finding the right angle, learning which way your bristles grow and stretching the skin accordingly, pre-shave prep, proper stropping technique and determination play the main part. It is not something learned at once, except by a happy few. For many it comes after months, some take considerably longer, some never find it. It's a learning process, and there is always something to be learned (or re-learned: people don't seem to have obsessed over things in the past like we do today - they should have written more manuals and books!).

All the Best,
Neil
 
Thanks Neil that about sums it up for me. I will take the straight to my bristles this year I know I will,maybe this summer. I agree with everything you have said, It's the aesthetics and ritual that do draw me to straight shaving and the fact that it can be tailored to one's individual needs. I look forward to it. Now it's choosing a razor as I do love the look of the Dovo Buffalo horn razor [ has slightly over-sized one piece, I think, handle with honey-coloured variations in it]. Thanks again Adam.
 
I would like to add something to this thread, even if it may be a little late.

I feel that two important factors were not mentioned in previous posts:

(1) DE blades are extremely thin, making the edge angle more acute than straights. DE blades, at least my Gillette, is .10mm thick while my thinnest full hollow straight (Boker) is at least twice that ( .24mm). I know the angle on my straight is between 18 and 20 degrees, but I can only imagine just how low the angle on the DE is - probably somewhere around an combined angle of 10 degrees, in my estimation (if anyone has an exact known angle that would be helpful). The thinness of the DE blade combined with a low edge angle is what helps it feel "sharper" than the straight.

(2) IIRC, DE blades use a teflon coating that reduces friction when shaving (and maybe to add a level of edge protection?) This is most likely to cover for the fact that the blades are not much sharper than #1,000 to #3,000 grit. Under 100X, the Gillette edge looks sandblasted smooth (a good characteristic) until the correct angle is found that exposes the machining marks. The edge of the edge is also very saw-toothed, and even more so on the used side.

I think a straight is much more refined, and therefore "is" sharper by definition, but because the sheer thinness of the DE allows it to sever more readily, it may "feel" sharper.

The trade off on the straight is that perhaps it needs a little more push to cut (which is not usually the case in my shaves), and the DE trade off is that it breaks down much faster.
 
I knew I'd wind up doing this eventually: you pushed me over the edge Tom. So: according to my micrometer, the thickness of the blade is indeed 0.1mm, and the length of the bevel is 0.6mm (an estimate, but it came out the same for two different blades), giving a combined angle of around 9.5 degrees. A longwinded way of saying that you're absolutely right.

What this means in terms of cutting action, presumably, is that the wedging effect is less with a DE blade, so there's less resistance: in this one valid sense the DE blade is "sharper", but it is also much more vulnerable to edge degradation. Combine that with a less than smooth edge in the first place and it just goes to show how useful the term "sharpness" really is: it's a blunt instrument (sorry). It is more worthwhile to consider the suitability of the edge to the task in hand, and if we can agree that smoothness minimises irritation, and that we don't want the edge to fall apart, then the straight razor carries the day.

Just how this translates to my experience of shaving in real life I'm not altogether sure though, since I can get 5 good shaves out of some DE blades, and I certainly wouldn't try using a straight razor for more than one without stropping ... in fact I strop between passes. Hopefully Neil will be passing by soon to offer his insights. (edit) Oh, he already has!
 
Arrowhead if that's the case about the straight being smoother yet under scrutiny is less sharper than a DE, that leaves me a little perplexed as to what to do. You say you get 5 shaves out of some DE blades, I get two good and one average to below average out of an Iridium & feather [the feather being the smoother & sharperfor the first two shaves]. You say you need to strop the straight before each shave [how long does this normally take you?]. What do you think, I still want to try the straight, if I don't I'll never know, also what straight for what type of beard as mine is a little on the tough side. I welcome your thoughts, Adam.
 
zig zag said:
What do you think, I still want to try the straight, if I don't I'll never know, also what straight for what type of beard as mine is a little on the tough side. I welcome your thoughts, Adam.
Click to expand...

Adam - a stiffer blade than usual - say 3/4 to just over half hollow grind, full hollow might be a bit too flexible (although it is thinner and we have just been told about the apparent sharpness/thinness payoff), not a spike or a square point but something a bit rounded like an oblique (aka french or irish point) or, safest of all, a round point.

And yes, you do have to strop before each shave - some people strop after and before. It doesn't take long - a few minutes maybe.

Regards,
Neil
 
Adam, I'd reckon to get the 5 shaves from a Super Iridium, 3 from a Feather, so clearly your beard is closer to Desperate Dan's than mine. I don't spend all that much time stropping, maybe 2 minutes before shaving and just long enough for a dozen strokes between passes and afterwards: little and often. Certainly I'd say it's worth trying, but there is a fair bit to learn about maintenance as well as shaving per se.
 
Thanks Neil & Andy, I'll look a little deeper into straight shaving, it seems it's a very bespoked thing, suited to one's own needs and an enjoyable one at that. Tell me, how often do you straight shave as opposed to DE? Oh, and how long between honings, or does this amount to how often you shave with a particular razor and how tough the beard is? Thanks again Adam
 
Honing is the province of the honemeister (that's Neil) so he can take that one. I'm straight shaving a good 90% of the time now, mostly because it suits my skin and I can shave at my leisure in the evenings. It's not a good proposition for a rushed shave early in the morning!
 
Well that sounds good to me as I shave in the evening and I'm pleasantly surprised that you shave 90% with a straight, as for some it's a weekend thing [nothing wrong in that at all]. I say that because if I did commit to straight shaving that's exactly what I'd do commit. Sounds promising.
 
Commit! Even if just on the weekends. Shave once or twice a week, and not because I don't need to shave more often. It is a little more time consuming to go for that BBS, but I swear I look better after a straight razor shave than with a DE or cartridge razor. (And even better after a few drinks! :lol: ) I know I feel better when my face can feel the smooth coolness of the pillow when I lay down to go to sleep, too.

I get 4-6 shaves before a touch up is needed - but I look for any reason to sharpen. :D Touching up is as simple as 3-5 strokes on the finest grit hone before stropping.

Andy - Thanks for doing the math on that DE blade! I didn't think about it - but back in the days of designing the DE blades, they must have known that the average edge angle for straights was 20, so if they halved the thickness, the simple math puts it at a 10 degree angle. I think I have just spun my wheels! :roll:
 
All this chat!

Out with the straight this morning. Not that I will have anything to contribute to this learned discussion other than to say just how good my skin feels after the experience. If anyone's thinking about it - there's only one way to find out if it's for you.
 
I use an open razor 100% of the time, and although it isn't really necessary I touch-up the blade once or twice a month - like j&d above, I just like honing!

Peoples acceptance of what is sharp enough varies considerably and a proper honing should only be necessary every two or three months for a normal beard, and maybe every six months to a year for a fine beard. Some people have gone on for well over a year, though, and some with tough beards every three/six weeks.

With proper stropping and using a two-part strop (one which has an abrasive side such as linen or canvas or cotton as well as leather) you can put off taking the blade to a hone for a long time. If you add an abrasive paste or powder into the equation and use this on the material component of the strop (or, better still, a stiff paddle) and only use it when required (5 - 10 laps only when the blade feels a bit dull - more laps and/or frequent use make the bevel become rounded quicker then you have to hone the blade sooner rather than later) you can put off honing for quite a considerable time.

Generally, the time between honing sessions increases as you become more proficient with your tools and after a year or so it should have levelled off to quite a predictable routine. Obviously, you are bound to make mistakes as you learn - like rolling the edge of the razor stropping, and hone too much wondering if you have got it sharp enough and trying for a bit more, or trying out different hones, etc, so at first you might find yourself taking the blade to the stone a bit frequently.

Honing too often, just for the sake of it, isn't such a good thing to do. The spine of the blade will develop flats that get wider as the spine gets thinner, and the angle of the bevel will change over time. I've seen some old razors where the spine was nearly flat which had huge bevels! I prefer to keep the spine as near original as possible, so I tape it with electrical tape during honing. As the tape wears during honing (I'm talking about complete restorations here and honing on a variety of stones and diamond plates from a lowly 325 grit up to 16.000 grit) it is replaced, saving wear on the spine of the razor.

As stated above, a touch-up can be as simple as 5 laps or so on a very fine hone. Some of the old small "barber hones" stress not to do more than 5 - 10 laps.

Regards,
Neil
 
zig zag said:
Well that sounds good to me as I shave in the evening and I'm pleasantly surprised that you shave 90% with a straight, as for some it's a weekend thing [nothing wrong in that at all]. I say that because if I did commit to straight shaving that's exactly what I'd do commit. Sounds promising.
Click to expand...

As you may have read, I recently tried straight shaving. It didn't work out for me, but I wouldn't discourage anybody else from having a go, especially with the guidance of Neil and the other straight shavers on here.

You need to be very patient.

Ian
 
Yes I have Ian, but like many have already mentioned you went the whole hog, in as much as you tried every avenue there was. In the end, as you say for yourself, it wasn't for you. Likewise I want to try it out and I do hope it works out if not then like yourself I not going to get cut-up about it [or maybe I will, whoops butter fingers, but like you say patient is the key and straights, I'm sure, are no exception].
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom