Help needed regarding honing

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sunny canvey in the Y-UK
Ok I got a shapton 16k touched up an old wapi that Neil sharpened years ago, but even after stropping it , when shaving it don't seem that sharp, not that I remember what it was like before tbh. It's passing hanging hair test.
Should I have bread knifed the edge lightly 1st?
I've managed a shave with it, but it just don't seem sharp.
Now the bit that's ringing in my ears is Neil always said when he touched up this razor, to us it, it won't seem sharp for a few shaves.......
Perhaps I need to wait.
Or do I need a finer hone, what do you think?

Help appreciated

Colin
 
There are a few reasons why you might not be getting the results you want.

First of all, and sorry for asking this, is your stone perfectly flat? By this I mean, have you lapped it until there is no light showing between the honing surface and a straight edge. If you have have just drawn hatching and lapped that off, then it probably isn't flat. If you don't have a straight edge then use the hatching trick 3-4 times to be half sure. Please don't take offence to this question - just need to baseline materials before continuing.

Secondly, how are you using the hone? There are a number of videos out there that say "x number of strokes and you are done." That never works for me. I recommend this video:
He uses a Naniwa 12k but the grit rating is similar to the Shapton 16k grit rating so his method applies

Thirdly you might have some micro chipping. The video above deals with that. You need a cheap loupe to be sure. £4 from Ebay. I use something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30X-60X-...536330&hash=item2ad2745183:g:BxMAAOSwN9NdU3OH

Fourthly, the Shapton 16k produces a shave-ready edge, but it is pedestrian. If you are used to something a bit more lively you might want to follow with paste. Three options here:

1) Good quality CrOx, followed by good Quality FerOx. The Windrose stuff is pretty good from shaver's delight: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chromium...900075?hash=item3d1fd2976b:g:yCwAAOSwru1eEm8M
2) The Solingen crayons:
N.B. the Solingen red crayon is not FerOx but courser. So you either refine CrOx-->FerOx, or Solingen Red-->Black. If you don't have a spare strop to use for the pastes, newspaper spread flat on the side of a counter top is a great stropping medium with the paste very lightly applied to the paper.

3) Diamond Pastes: You will want 0.5 micron, 0.25, and if you really want to push it, 0.1 micron.

Obviously don't pollute your main strop with paste.

Don't bread knife the blade unless you want to start from scratch with a new bevel set. The only reason you might want to do that is is if you have an almighty chip in the edge. But that would be clearly obvious without a loupe.
 
Very helpful, thank you, loupe ordered , I will leave it alone until then.
What do I need to lap/check the stone is flat? The water pooled across the complete blade edge.
That YouTube clip, that's more or less the way I did it, I also tried Lynn Abrams circles.
 
Very helpful, thank you, loupe ordered , I will leave it alone until then.
What do I need to lap/check the stone is flat? The water pooled across the complete blade edge.

For checking the flatness, one of these or similar: https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-bevelled-straight-edges-ax20469

For initially flattening a stone I like a wide truly flat area. I use one of these:

With silicon carbide wet n dry on top. I wet both sides and let the water adhere it to the glass.

I use 400 - 600. With a high grit stone like your 16k I might go higher afterwards but I haven't found it makes much difference with synthetic stones. On natural slates I always lap with a higher grit after flattening.

When I hone I use a diamond plate, raise a slurry, as per the video I shared above. This extends the usefulness of the stone and speeds up the honing. You kind of get two stones for the price of one. With slurry the stone grinds faster and without it polishes the edge better, like a two stone progression. It also means that you are flattening the stone each time and removing swarf from the surface. To be fair this isn't so much of a problem with Shaptons in comparison with the Naniwa but you still get a swarf build up which will cause you problems.

I used to use a DMT plate, but have now found Atoma better :
 
Very helpful, thank you, loupe ordered , I will leave it alone until then.
What do I need to lap/check the stone is flat? The water pooled across the complete blade edge.
That YouTube clip, that's more or less the way I did it, I also tried Lynn Abrams circles.
I think you probably just need to follow up with paste. Remember, with any paste, less is more in terms of what you put on the strop. If you use balsa make sure you lap it really well before applying paste.
 
Is the feeling: not sharp as in tugging or not sharp as in not cutting close enough? Blade: wedge or full hollow? You: daily straight razor shaver or just taking it for the occasional spin?
 
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+1 for pasted strops, i find they really help to finish an edge. That said personally i'd add a couple of dozen laps on 1 micron lapping film between the 16K and CroOx, it's cheap to try as well, about £3 a sheet that can be cut into 3 or 4.

I have found that with advice on honing there is a lot of really good advice given on forums etc. but not all of it will suit you, there is more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes, and some times the best thing is to try lots of ways and see what suits you.
 
For checking the flatness, one of these or similar: https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-bevelled-straight-edges-ax20469

For initially flattening a stone I like a wide truly flat area. I use one of these:

With silicon carbide wet n dry on top. I wet both sides and let the water adhere it to the glass.

I use 400 - 600. With a high grit stone like your 16k I might go higher afterwards but I haven't found it makes much difference with synthetic stones. On natural slates I always lap with a higher grit after flattening.

When I hone I use a diamond plate, raise a slurry, as per the video I shared above. This extends the usefulness of the stone and speeds up the honing. You kind of get two stones for the price of one. With slurry the stone grinds faster and without it polishes the edge better, like a two stone progression. It also means that you are flattening the stone each time and removing swarf from the surface. To be fair this isn't so much of a problem with Shaptons in comparison with the Naniwa but you still get a swarf build up which will cause you problems.

I used to use a DMT plate, but have now found Atoma better :


Thank you so much for all this wealth of info, I'd been looking for some of this stuff but never managed to find it.


Regarding finishing, my stone progression also goes to a Shapton Glass 16k, but I have recently added a Thuringian natural stone to my collection and it has done wonders. Once you get past the learning curve (quite a quick one) the results are truly great. I don't bother with pastes. All the way up to the Thuri and then it's Russian Leather strop 'til it bleeds and a finishing horsehide strop 'til it begs me to stop.
 
Is the feeling: not sharp as in tugging or not sharp as in not cutting close enough? Blade: wedge or full hollow? You: daily straight razor shaver or just taking it for the occasional spin?

Now it's funny you ask that as a question, my first straight was the wapi, and I always felt it had no weight in it, and it felt tugy.
So I got 4 wedges 6/8 and 7/8 Joseph Rodgers X2 and a gates (this thing holds an amazing edge) Neil sharpened it about a year before we lost him, and it's just got too bad to shave with. Im trying on the wapi so I don't muck up the others.
Thanks again to seven eighth for the help, looking under the loupe I'm seeing carbon/looks like rust on the edge of the blade.
I have a 8k that's far too course too use before the 16k I would have thought
 
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@seveneighth I've also found some cheaper #400 and #1000 diamond plates would these work to lap the 16k? I've ordered a veritus glass plate and carbide wet n dry that was sooooo cheap.

Thank you
I have only tried DMT and Atoma. The DMT plates are heavier and wore down quickly. Nice to use as hones though. The Atomas have been better for lapping. Atomas seem to be the ones most people use.

I really can't comment on others. If you try a different brand will you let us know how it handles?
 
Now it's funny you ask that as a question, my first straight was the wapi, and I always felt it had no weight in it, and it felt tugy.
So I got 4 wedges 6/8 and 7/8 Joseph Rodgers X2 and a gates (this thing holds an amazing edge) Neil sharpened it about a year before we lost him, and it's just got too bad to shave with. Im trying on the wapi so I don't muck up the others.
Thanks again to seven eighth for the help, looking under the loupe I'm seeing carbon/looks like rust on the edge of the blade.
I have a 8k that's far too course too use before the 16k I would have thought
If it IS just surface level rust then you should be able to polish out on the 16k. If the metal is compromised then you will need to hone at a lower grit. The 8k might be enough to deal with that. If the edge is compromised, you might need a honer to reset the bevel. Is the discolouration just on the very edge? Does it cover the whole bevel? Does it extend behind the bevel, up the face?

Is your 8k a shapton as well? You should be fine jumping from 8k to 16k. Rule of thumb is to double the grit / halve the micron size. It does make it a lot easier if you have the 12k in between at that grit level, but it's not necessary. If you take it to the 8k, observe the scratches the stone leaves under the loupe. Your aim will be to polish those out with the 16k when you return to it.

At 8 / 16k you should be using very little pressure. More strokes, lighter pressure is better when refreshing.

I would continue with the 16k first, and see where you get to.
 
Thank you so much for all this wealth of info, I'd been looking for some of this stuff but never managed to find it.

I only know these things because they aren't clear on the forums / youtube and I ended up learning the hard way by making every mistake under the sun.

As @Bazz says above - there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Your mileage may vary.
 
I only know these things because they aren't clear on the forums / youtube and I ended up learning the hard way by making every mistake under the sun.

As @Bazz says above - there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Your mileage may vary.

@seveneighth

Hey I'm a 50 year old engineer, with no qualifications, and I've only had 4 jobs so I learn fast , the hard way. I've taken a pic under macro and colour filter , this is the worse blade I own I'm trying to get a useable pic with my DSLR this is off the mobile

IMG_20200518_001802.jpg
 
I have used wet n dry 320 on glass for lapping and it works and it is cheap (though only lapped three hones, two that I never use and one that is my base for the 3M film I use honing)

edit: reason for having retired my Shapton 500 and King 1000, not buying vintage razors with edges needing restoration anymore, so honing is about refreshing now, normally on 3M film but sometimes I do finish om my welsh slate
 
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