Technical Question

G

Geofnay

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752
Location
Lincolnshire
As an inveterate soap purchaser (I have about 3 for every cream) I try to keep up on what's in each (no sodium lauryl sulphate, thanks) and who makes them. The more informative producers will tell you how the soap is made e.g triple milled. My question is this: Le pere Lucien is the product of cold saponification, whereas MdC uses the hot method. Both have good reviews, so what are the advantages/disadvantages of each method and is one better than the other. Maybe one for Nanny/Fox.
Apologies if this has been pored over already.
 
Geofnay said:
As an inveterate soap purchaser (I have about 3 for every cream) I try to keep up on what's in each (no sodium lauryl sulphate, thanks) and who makes them. The more informative producers will tell you how the soap is made e.g triple milled. My question is this: Le pere Lucien is the product of cold saponification, whereas MdC uses the hot method. Both have good reviews, so what are the advantages/disadvantages of each method and is one better than the other. Maybe one for Nanny/Fox.
Apologies if this has been pored over already.
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Your right there are advantages and one of the main advantages would be with the hot process you can in theory use the soap straight away. The cold process has to cure for a 4 - 6 week period before use. There are other differences but these can border trade secrets as you need to work with the two and discover these differences for the given application you want to achieve.

From an users point of view there is not much difference as both are soap. But then the main difference that there would be of cause, would be performance based on how well the soap was made and the choice of ingredients employed.

I know its a bit vague but I hope this kind of answers your question. :D
 
Thanks. It's interesting that, despite using the hot process, MdC leave their soaps to cure for 5 months. After some research I can see that one disadvantage of the hot process is that some oils can be problematic (palm & coconut - favoured for their lathering properties); an additional advantage to the one identified by Fox seems to be the need for less scent ingredients. Fascinating subject.
 
Geofnay said:
Thanks. It's interesting that, despite using the hot process, MdC leave their soaps to cure for 5 months. After some research I can see that one disadvantage of the hot process is that some oils can be problematic (palm & coconut - favoured for their lathering properties); an additional advantage to the one identified by Fox seems to be the need for less scent ingredients. Fascinating subject.
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Yes this is true, but the same can be said for the cold process. I prefer the hot process because the working window for certain oil/s, amounts and combinations is larger than it is with the cold process for those same oil/s, amounts and combinations. With the cold process you have to watch out for fast trace and set up, (seized soap). This problem does not really exist in the hot process, although I have experienced separation and slow trace, but generally less care is required.

"MdC leave their soaps to cure for 5 months"

Well spotted, I too recognised this. Watch their video's, there is one where a French news crew gets a tour. There is a woman who does the zap test to a batch of soap in a mixer after it has supposedly been through the hot process. I think what they are doing is heating the oils and adding the lye up to the point it starts the saponification, then it is removed from the heat, mixed to cool and scent added. Then potted, pressed and stored for 5 months to finish the saponification process. Why 5 months though as this is much longer than needed really, maybe it has something to do with insuring the scent is fixed in the soap.

I think its a good way to work as it means they can make a higher volume of soap per day and the energy use is more efficient this way. Its a modified hot/cold process that they use.
 
I just noticed this thread. I tried to watch the MdeC vids, but my novice French struggled to keep up. I'd be fascinated to know what the stuff that looked like coal that they poured into a bowl of clear liquid was.
As for curing for 5 weeks; surely that's for their bar soap? And the woman doing the zap test; surely she was expecting (and it seemed to be the case) that the soap was fully saponified when she did it? I never heard of anyone doing a zap test when they weren't expecting and hoping that saponification was complete? Or the woman's tongue is already so burnt to shreds that she can't tell the difference. In which case, what's the point?
In answer to your question Geofnay, as long as saponification is complete, one way or the other, I'm not aware of any advantage from the end user's point of view regarding which method is used. And indeed, read the ingredients; that, as Mr. Fox has pointed out, is what matters.
I'd be very happy if someone could post a translation of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxjOBsZR4aU , particularly the parts where they are speaking to the women in the factory/shop. I don't expect they are revealing many trade secrets though.:icon_sad:
 
soapalchemist said:
I just noticed this thread. I tried to watch the MdeC vids, but my novice French struggled to keep up. I'd be fascinated to know what the stuff that looked like coal that they poured into a bowl of clear liquid was.
As for curing for 5 weeks; surely that's for their bar soap? And the woman doing the zap test; surely she was expecting (and it seemed to be the case) that the soap was fully saponified when she did it? I never heard of anyone doing a zap test when they weren't expecting and hoping that saponification was complete? Or the woman's tongue is already so burnt to shreds that she can't tell the difference. In which case, what's the point?
In answer to your question Geofnay, as long as saponification is complete, one way or the other, I'm not aware of any advantage from the end user's point of view regarding which method is used. And indeed, read the ingredients; that, as Mr. Fox has pointed out, is what matters.
I'd be very happy if someone could post a translation of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxjOBsZR4aU , particularly the parts where they are speaking to the women in the factory/shop. I don't expect they are revealing many trade secrets though.:icon_sad:
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Yes I see now, well pointed out Sharon, you are right about the zap test and I did notice but that mixer is also heated from underneath.

The woman speaks briefly about the process but only the saponification, zap testing and if it tingles the tongue then it needs more heat.

The dark stuff you mention looks to me as a resin of some sort, really hard to tell. Or could it be a coloured wax? They don't explain what it is but rather talk about the history of the Royal Abbey of Fontevraud, Napoleon converted it into a prison and something about prisoners being there until the 60's, either that or my French is rusty too. :D

Interestingly they explain that they have two hundred thousand visitors a year to that site because of its historic significance.
 
I Wikied the Abbey, but that didn't help. I don't think wax would react with either lye or water, unless mega hot. I have some Frankincense resin here......hmmmm.
 
soapalchemist said:
I Wikied the Abbey, but that didn't help. I don't think wax would react with either lye or water, unless mega hot. I have some Frankincense resin here......hmmmm.
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Sharon let me know how you get on with the Frankincense resin please. I do know that Benioz is used as a scent fixative and also a natural preservative in soaps. It also happens to be a resin too. Although both of these resins are light-ish in colour, so my guess is it could of been Myrrh in the video, maybe?

http://mystic-scents-of-heaven.auctivacommerce.com/1-lb-Myrrh-Incense-Resin--P1705888.aspx

I also just found the wiki for the Abbey, my French is not too far off. For anyone else who is interested, the place has a rich history with English ties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontevraud_Abbey
 
Once took a soaping making class and took home a case of beer sized block of soap. Being overly anxious about wanting to try it and after having it cure for 2weeks I decided to cut it into blocks to speed the process. Wrong did it without gloves and 2wks ended up not being long enough for the cure. This became every clear to me, very quickly.
Can't imagine anyone one using their tongue!!!( didn't tingle; it burned).
 
I had a conversation with my son the chemist who was asked by one of his mates, "Why is it that when I spill Sodium Hydroxide solution on my hands it always feels soapy?"

Martin was able to tell him that NaOH solution is not soapy but it forms instant soap by extracting the fat FROM YOUR SKIN!!!

Can't be good for you! :icon_eek:
 
globalm said:
I had a conversation with my son the chemist who was asked by one of his mates, "Why is it that when I spill Sodium Hydroxide solution on my hands it always feels soapy?"

Martin was able to tell him that NaOH solution is not soapy but it forms instant soap by extracting the fat FROM YOUR SKIN!!!

Can't be good for you! :icon_eek:
Click to expand...

Back in the 1980's I worked with a guy who had in the 70's worked as a brick layer. His hands were bandage so I asked why this was so and his reply was he use to mix up cement with his hands. His palms had splits across them where the skin had dried out and cracked open. The sight of his damaged hands was enough to make sure I always wear gloves when working with anything caustic.
 
Johnus, I think if the soap literally burned your skin after 2 weeks then either the recipe was wrong or you weighed something wrong. I have used my own soap after a few days without problems. The main point of the curing time is to dry the soap out so it lasts better.
 
soapalchemist said:
I just noticed this thread. I tried to watch the MdeC vids, but my novice French struggled to keep up. I'd be fascinated to know what the stuff that looked like coal that they poured into a bowl of clear liquid was.
As for curing for 5 weeks; surely that's for their bar soap?
Click to expand...
Hi Sharon,
It is the shaving soap and it's actually 5 months - have a gander at their old website http://www.shaving-soap.net
and click on shaving soap making.
 
P.S. Mr. Fox, thanks for that link, the myrrh does indeed look similar. I did a tiny bowl of lye tonight and threw in some granules of Frankincense; they dissolved a bit but not completely. Maybe they would dissolve better if it was a bigger amount of lye which would stay hotter for longer?
 
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