Brush Shape Queries.

mpf9ret

mpf9ret

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I have a few what might be called Budget Brushes, including the Vulfix 404, Kent Infinity & more latterly
a Stirling Synthetic, + a couple of Omega boars. These all serve me well.

However, I do browse the site, and enjoy looking at the Forums on Various Subjects. I have noted that besides Knot Size & Loft , there seem to be 3 brush shapes. These seem to be Fan, Bulb, and Flat. I wondered if someone could explain the relative merits of the different shapes ?
 
Oh dear, good question.
I had better allocate some brain to accept this new knowledge.
I have been trying to avoid thinking brushes so far.
 
Although I own each of the three knot shapes I'm not sure I can give a complete answer, but here goes: First, a fan-shape will bloom more than a bulb-shape, but less than a flat-top. This means you can use a knot with a smaller diameter and shorter loft for a fan-shape knot than you can for a bulb; however, the flat top will splay even more than a fan, which allows you to use a smaller knot than a fan. Second, since a bulb-shape knot blooms and splays less than a fan or a flat top, you can use a bigger knot both in terms of diameter and loft. As a bulb-shaped knot remains more compact, it is more accurate when it comes to applying lather than either a fan or flat-top. Third, I find the flow through of my fans and flat-tops to be better than my bulbs, but that may be more to do with knot density than to knot shape alone. From an aesthetics perspective, I find this is a function of the shape of the handle; some handles look better with a fan and some with a bulb. I like my fans as much as I like my bulbs, but I find the flat-top more of a novelty. The principal drawback of the flat-top is that it takes an adjustment in technique when lathering on my face.
 
I think Rufus seems to sum it up. Certainly I couldn't find fault with his thoughts.

Never used a flat top and they seem much less commom so it's the fan versus bulb in my book and having now got one of each from shavemac it strikes me that the distinction between the two isn't as obvious to me as it is to others. Mine consist a 26x52 fan and a 24x50 bulb and the MAIN differences are obvious enough: the extra size and bloom are reasonably obvious when in use (on the face) but neither strikes me as feeling SUBSTANTIALLY better than the other and are equally soft and, to me, have a, not dissimilar, amout of stiffness in the body of the thing (backbone?). They both lather as well as each other and both feel inordinately pleasant with NO scritch at all. Therefore I'd be perfectly happy with either. There's not a HUGE difference in the size of the knot or the handle...the word is subtle. (see my pictures of both together in another thread). The smaller bulb is (and feels) more compat but both splay nicely and both produce lovely quantities and quality of lather...which is what they're for!

Others are much better placed to describe the nuances and discreet qualities but I, now, would say that if offering a rule of thumb for a relative newcomer I would say order a knot size of between 23 and 26 and would AT LEAST double the figure for the loft so therefore the figures 23x46 or 24x48 or 25x50 or 26x52 would be starting points. BUT some here then have higher lofts and others go lower...that's where the finer points of discussion occur. And re. bulb or fan I could honestly settle for either (at least in the shavemac range...which is rather delightful, as most here would agree).

But then again.... I have Muhle/Jagger synthetics in 23mm and 25mm plus Plison synthetic in 22/23mm...and they are also fabulously soft and luxurious (in my book) and utterly pleasant to use - and much cheaper than the shavemacs.

If I, personally, HAD to pick ONE...on a bit of a budget...I'd say 25mm Muhle or Jagger synthetic. With no fiscal constrictions then I suppose, if choosing ONE brush you'd have to try a good quality badger and, for value, service, quality, appearance, common sense... it would be a shavemac 2 band silvertip in 25x50 and toss a coin whether it wa a fan or a bulb. I would easily get by with either :)

But this forum exists to discuss the relative merits of the others in their various makes, shapes and types in great detail...so carry on reading!
 
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said.

Historically, the fan shape is the traditional knot shape for a shaving brush, it used to be the only shape available. Most face latherers seem to prefer this shape over the slightly less functional, but more aestheticly pleasing bulb shape.

My favorite knot shape blends the bulb and fan, and is basically a bulb shaped brush with a flattened top.
It is pretty much a custom order knot though. I don't know of any manufacturers who make this knot style on a regular basis.
 
PLANofMAN said:
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said.

Historically, the fan shape is the traditional knot shape for a shaving brush, it used to be the only shape available. Most face latherers seem to prefer this shape over the slightly less functional, but more aestheticly pleasing bulb shape.

My favorite knot shape blends the bulb and fan, and is basically a bulb shaped brush with a flattened top.
It is pretty much a custom order knot though. I don't know of any manufacturers who make this knot style on a regular basis.
Click to expand...
I'm intrigued.... where can you custom order a knot? I wouldn't mind trying this type!
 
OSP said:
I'm intrigued.... where can you custom order a knot? I wouldn't mind trying this type!
Click to expand...
Shave Mac will do it. VP Leonhardy might do it. I believe Rooney will do it.

The Chinese vendors that make their own knots will do it, but there will be some trial and error before they get it right.

It's just a matter of contacting the manufacturer and asking them to do a custom knot shape.
 
As you so rightly say shavemac will do it...and, in my own small way, it's now my personal experience that Bernd, the proprieter, is indeed a good man to deal with having purchased from, and subsequently corresponded with, him and and found him to be helpful and accommodating.....as you will, I'm sure, know much better than I.

But the Rooney thing perplexes me. After some late night reading about the Rooney story a while ago I honestly didn't think they existed any more. The last of the Rooneys, the elderly lady whose name escapes me, surely passed the name, and what little there was left of the firm, on to Lee Sabini who, it seems, became the owner and managing director of R. A. Rooney & Sons Ltd but hasn't maintained the name for some time now. He lives in Essex, not that far from where Rooney used to trade from, in Walthamstow and elsewhere in East London, but the most recent illustration I saw of their last works site looked derelict. There are no functioning contact details for them that I could see....and Lee himself , as we know, is not easy to contact most of the time. He is(was) associated with the City of London Brushworks and, currently, Morris and Forndran and, by extension, Paladin...but it seemed pretty clear that Rooney, as it was, is no longer. It happens that when my Paladin (Morris and Forndran) TSN Limited Edition 2015 brush arrived recently it came boxed in a very nicely made red cardboard box that appeared remarkably similar to a Rooney box but without the Rooney name on it (or in fact any name on it). I believe Fido (Peter) ex of New Forest Brushes would be the man to speak to as he did some research about it and wrote some of it up. Can't remember if it was here on on another shaving site.
 
Lee Sabini did in fact take over Rooney's operations, which at the time, consisted of the elderly owner and one worker. He then bought two other small brush making operations and merged them all into one company under the Rooney/ London Brushworks name.

The best way to contact Lee is through email. Someone over on Badger & Blade could probably help you there.
 
It's not just the three shapes mentioned - most of my brushes would fall into a category that I'd put somewhere between bulb and fan. It wasn't until I received my limited edition TSR brush that I realised what a true bulb looks like.
It's worthwhile considering how brush shapes are formed - for a long time I was, mistakenly, under the impression that trimming was involved. However, following a fairly heated discussion on another forum, videos were posted that show that, for quality knots, the shape is achieved by inserting the tips into a former that has an internal shape corresponding to the desired end result - in other words, after tamping down, when viewed from the bottom, the knot is concave. After tying, the bottom of the knot is trimmed, tied again then set in epoxy.
More than anything to my mind, what affects performance most is how the knot is set - some of the posts above indicate that a fan will bloom more than a bulb - this may be literally correct in that a fan has longer hairs, therefore measured from side to side it is wider, but to me it's a moot point as to whether it really has bloomed more. What affects blooming is the amount of room at the top of the handle and depth that the knot is set. Add into the equation the shape of the rim and these are the factors that really affect bloom - and it's that, that dictates how much lather the knot will hold.

All of this, is a long winded way of saying that my LE brush doesn't hold enough lather for my liking because it's set too low - nothing to do with the shape. Another couple of mm higher would make a huge difference.
 
It's hard striking the right balance between backbone and lather holding capability.

The lower the knot is set, the more backbone it will have. The higher it's set, the more water retention, lather holding and lather releasing capability it will have.

The hair used has a effect as well. A three band silvertip will need to be set very deeply to approximate the backbone of a two band finest knot, as the finest hairs are thicker and stiffer. The density and size of the knot also have a significant impact on how the knot feels on the face.

From personal experience with a Shavemac knot, they take a long time to break in. I found the knot to start holding more lather after the thirtieth or so time I used it. The first five times I used it, I could hardly get it to even splay at all. Granted, the D01 two band is a niche knot, for only the truly diehard backbone lover.

Edit: In my opinion, @Fido is one of the few brush (ex)manufacturers to have perfectly struck a balance between backbone, density, and flow through.

Oh, and those 'forms' are called brush cannons. They are typically made from brass or plastic.
 
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I like a fan shape, meself (face latherer). Simpsons brushes are often a hybrid bulb/fan and my Colonel X2L had a fantastic knot. In fact, I miss it.....:(
 
PLANofMAN said:
Lee Sabini did in fact take over Rooney's operations, which at the time, consisted of the elderly owner and one worker. He then bought two other small brush making operations and merged them all into one company under the Rooney/ London Brushworks name.

The best way to contact Lee is through email. Someone over on Badger & Blade could probably help you there.
Click to expand...

Or try using his Facebook page?

https://www.facebook.com/people/Lee-Sabini/100009118759150
 
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